Motherhood Anxiety to Deserving Success with Linda Habak

Linda Habak is an established interior designer and property developer, as well as the creator, founder, and host of the podcast "Build Beautiful." Her journey spans from studying textile technology and working in marketing to ultimately embracing her passion for design. Linda's career is marked by her intuitive approach to life, her ability to pivot amidst challenges, and her unwavering commitment to personal growth and spiritual connection.

Key Takeaways:

• Embrace life's pivots and turns by trusting intuition and spiritual guidance to align your life with your true passions.
• Recognise and manage feelings of anxiety and perfectionism in motherhood; it's essential to embrace and accept these feelings while allowing space for personal growth.
• Overcome feelings of guilt associated with success by reframing and understanding the journey's purpose amid cultural and self-imposed expectations.
• Parent with faith, not fear; respect and honor the present moment in your children's lives, while holding space for their growth.
• Accept the presence of imposter syndrome and negative thoughts as universal experiences and continue to trust your inner voice and creative passions to pursue your true calling.

Notable Quotes:

• "I realised I was parenting from a place of fear and not faith. That mindset shift changed everything."
• "Stay true to who you are. Don't prescribe to what you think it should look like. Just be you and run your own race."
• "Your cup has to be full in order to give to others'
• "Even the most successful people still feel imposter syndrome. It's okay to have it—that shouldn't stop us from continuing to grow."
• "Our brain is designed that way to keep us in a fearful state and to stop us from doing things."
• "Don't prioritise the house. Prioritise being present with the kids. Give yourself some grace."

Resources:

• Build Beautiful Podcast
• Social Media: Linda Habak on LinkedIn, Instagram

For an enriching experience of heartfelt reflections and bold inspiration, tune into this episode of "Finding Sanctuary." Stay adjacent for more captivating conversations that promise to challenge and elevate your journey.

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Transcript

0:00:00 - (Debbie Draybi): Do you feel deserving of the life that you've built?

0:00:03 - (Linda Habak): Gosh, I think if you asked me that 10 years ago, I probably. That's where the shame was at its peak. No, I would have said no, I don't feel deserving. But I think time and wisdom and hard work. I just had an argument with God one day and I'm like, I've got all these feelings and frustrations. So either, you know, let me be happy with the life that I have. I should not feel this feeling of needing to do more and more. And literally two weeks later, I had someone call me and say, can you help me with my house?

0:00:35 - (Linda Habak): And I'm like, okay, God, great. You've answered my prayer. Like, that's what I meant to do.

0:00:44 - (Debbie Draybi): Welcome to Finding Sanctuary. Our shared conversations into how we think and feel and how we find peace and comfort in daily life. We get together with experts to chat about all things mental health, getting insights and understanding on the struggles of life.

0:01:03 - (Debbie Draybi): Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of Finding Sanctuary. Really excited that we're coming into our Christmas episodes as we wrap up the year. And it's a time for reflection. And I've got Nat here joining me alongside, which is really nice. Always nice to have you, Nat.

0:01:19 - (Natalie Moujalli): Thanks.

0:01:19 - (Debbie Draybi): Co hosting.

0:01:20 - (Natalie Moujalli): Love being here.

0:01:21 - (Debbie Draybi): And I have a very special friend who's a friend from my childhood, actually, that I grew up with and went to school with, Linda Habbok. Linda's an interior designer and a property developer. She's also the creator and founder and host of Build Beautiful, which is a podcast which has emerged this year. And Linda's done some incredible work in that space. So welcome, Linda. I'm really glad you can join us.

0:01:43 - (Linda Habak): Hi. Hi, Debbie. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

0:01:46 - (Debbie Draybi): I know. Well, I'm excited to have you here. I know that you and I, we have lots of deep conversations now. We've been given microphones, so I know.

0:01:55 - (Linda Habak): It feels weird being on the other side of the fence being the guest, not the host.

0:01:59 - (Debbie Draybi): Not the host, actually. Yeah. Hope that doesn't mean I'm going to be your guest one day.

0:02:02 - (Linda Habak): You will be. No, I think so.

0:02:05 - (Debbie Draybi): I know we've had lots of conversations over the years and this week we've had a pre meeting to talk about, you know, some of the key themes that we want to discuss as we're moving into the Christmas season. It's really a time of reflection on the life that we lead and the years that we've just had. And one of the things we Wanted to explore with you. And I'm wondering if we can think about how we turn that inwardly and design our lives in the way that aligns with our values, but also the things that we're really passionate about. And I know that you've done lots of different things.

0:02:37 - (Debbie Draybi): In high school, everyone thought Linda was going to be a fashion designer.

0:02:41 - (Linda Habak): That's right.

0:02:41 - (Debbie Draybi): And now she's a. She's still in design, but in a very different space. So I just wondered about, you know, your journey from. From those early years, which I had the privilege of knowing you.

0:02:51 - (Linda Habak): Thank you. Yeah, it's a lot of pivots and turns to come back to a life of design. I mean, I did three in at art and three in at textiles. And really, for all intents purposes, I was going to be a fashion designer. But God had a different plan. And I think something we talked about the other night is very much. I've been in conversation with God, I feel my whole life. And certainly in these later years where I've gotten a bit older and had different challenges, you sort of. That's where you go inward and you reflect and you ask for help. Sometimes I've been down on my knees going, what is my purpose?

0:03:28 - (Linda Habak): But going back to leaving high school, I really wanted to do textile technology at university. And I didn't get into the course and I got into my second preference, which was a commerce degree. And at the time, when I look back, I think, why. There was a time there, a couple of years when I had started studying design for a second time and I thought, God, I've missed out on all these years that I could have been doing this work.

0:03:55 - (Linda Habak): But I realized that that was part of my journey, that was part of the path. And I had to surrender and just let go and let God, really, and just trust that that was part of the pathway for me. I'm very lucky to have done a business degree. And I chose to do that because it was a safe option. You know, you can't go wrong doing a business degree. Even though I wasn't ever desperately passionate about it.

0:04:20 - (Linda Habak): When I reflect back now, I realise part of that too was not a sense of responsibility. Because my parents could not be more supportive to this day. I mean, I've done a billion different things, traveled and done all these things, and they're always the first ones there supporting me. But I think subconsciously, maybe there's that immigrant child story of feeling like you should tickle the boxes, do all the right things, because it's your way of giving back and paying homage to their challenges, to their sacrifices.

0:04:53 - (Linda Habak): And so I chose that option because I could have gone to a private college to do fashion, but I don't know, I just. I wasn't called to do that. So I had a career in marketing, and that was fantastic. And then I stopped and had three kids. So I went back to design as really a second career. But actually, initially when I studied design, it was not ever going to be career. It was just purely vocational.

0:05:20 - (Linda Habak): And it was a way for me to deal with a lot of the anxiety that I was going through as a young mother of three very young kids.

0:05:27 - (Natalie Moujalli): So design was a way that you dealt with kind of being in the trenches of motherhood.

0:05:34 - (Linda Habak): Yes, yes. So I was saying before, I don't talk a lot about. I was a very anxious mother, I think partly because I was a perfectionist. I'm a recovering perfectionist now.

0:05:44 - (Natalie Moujalli): Aren't we all?

0:05:46 - (Linda Habak): I'm like, I'm done being. There is no perfection. That took me a long time to work out. I had three kids in just over two and a half years, which is not an unusual story. A lot of people do that.

0:05:58 - (Debbie Draybi): I remember that. Three under three, Linda Three under three. It was a massive thing.

0:06:02 - (Linda Habak): I found it really hard. And I would look around me, particularly when I would go to mother's group. Everyone was older than me because I lived in Dr. Moen at the time and everyone was 35 having their kids. And I was 28 or 28 when I started. And I would look at these women and they were so relaxed and I was highly strung, Just so incredibly stressed all the time. And I felt so much shame and guilt around feeling like that. Like everything's great, Life is great. Thank God. My husband's amazing. My parents are healthy and amazing.

0:06:41 - (Linda Habak): My in laws couldn't be more loving. You know, we have a roof over our heads. Everything on paper was perfect. But I felt overwhelmed and stressed and anxious. So I went back to study design because that was my reprieve. It saved me from myself almost. So it really wasn't ever meant to become another career or it was just reprieve. It was my way of dealing with. Yeah, with my anxiety, which I didn't really talk a lot about at the time.

0:07:11 - (Linda Habak): I think people could look and see I was highly strung. Like, we had to be home by a certain time, put the kids to bed. It was very routine. And that was our coping mechanism. It was the way we survived it. Yeah.

0:07:23 - (Natalie Moujalli): A lot of people don't realize that when they see mothers typically not Always. But when they see mothers that are overly structured and routine, it is a form of control because it is a way to help control your anxiety a little bit. When you have younger children, it sounds like you felt guilty about being anxious, about being overwhelmed when you're kids were young, which is also very common. Like, I'm sure a lot of our listeners can relate to that. It's like, all on paper, everything looks great.

0:07:52 - (Natalie Moujalli): So why do I feel like this? Why do I need more?

0:07:55 - (Linda Habak): And it's an internal struggle. I mean, certainly back then, I talk a lot, like I'm talking to people all the time, but I don't think I shared it very openly. Even with my husband. I don't think I came out and overtly said, I am struggling with anxiety. I never had postnatal depression because I'm too happy. A person really struggled with a constant state of stress always. And as it turned out, I ended up being diagnosed with an autoimmune condition. I think that was the way my body coped. It just shut down. And I had sort of a few years there of dealing with different sort of autoimmune issues.

0:08:34 - (Linda Habak): But since then, I think I've recovered from those symptoms because I did do a lot of internal work, a lot of conversations with God, and also a lot of things outside of that space too. You know, a lot of meditation. I did a lot of reading around, sort of Dr. Wayne Dyer, and, you know, you kind of go on this journey, you're trying to understand yourself, and why do I feel the way I feel? Why do I think the way I think? Because you get so frustrated within yourself.

0:09:05 - (Linda Habak): So, yeah, it's been a journey, but, yeah, designing my life. I don't think it was ever strategic or intentional. It was very much just guided by a very strong intuition of what is the next thing that I should do.

0:09:19 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah, from what I'm hearing, Linda, you created a pathway for yourself to really help manage these really complex emotions, which in a lot of ways didn't make sense for you. You tried to understand, why am I feeling this? This is the life I have. And on a rational level, it all looks like it should be the perfect life. But ultimately it was very stressful and you had a lot to deal with. You know, all these multiple competing demands. Having three children so young and then seeing other mothers come across very differently.

0:09:55 - (Debbie Draybi): You know, experience motherhood differently to you.

0:09:57 - (Linda Habak): It can be isolating. And I think also if I look at mother's group, for instance, it was very Anglo Saxon because of the suburb that I Lived in. I think culturally there was a big difference too. I think. I think the subconscious pressure, and I don't. It's. It's not overt pressure, but it was a pressure I felt about keeping the house in order in a sort. Like I would mop three times. I mean, who mops three times a day?

0:10:26 - (Linda Habak): How? I look back now and I just go, what on earth were you doing? You should have been resting. You should have rested your body and your mind. But instead it came back to control. And these are all things in hindsight that I look back and I understand. But at the time I didn't understand it. And so that was my way of dealing. It was. The only thing I could control, was keeping the house in order, mopping the floors three times a day to keep them clean, you know, so whatever I could control, I did because I had these three beautiful, adorable children who were relying on me.

0:11:02 - (Linda Habak): Sometimes I feel a little sad and I've actually given myself a lot of grace around this now because I think it was such a blur. Like, I look back at videos and I get emotional. Cause I'm like, was I present in that moment? Did I truly enjoy that moment? Because when I look back now, my heart aches with love for them. But in that moment, I don't know, it was chaos. It's survival.

0:11:26 - (Natalie Moujalli): It's survival because, you know, especially three under three, it's. There is no. In reality, there is no control, you know, you have. Do you know what I mean? So how exhausting to try and gain it when it doesn't. You're destined to fail at that point. So you are tired and you're trying to survive.

0:11:45 - (Linda Habak): Yeah, that's right, exactly.

0:11:46 - (Debbie Draybi): Palinda, I'm hearing, you know, this incredible wisdom in reflecting on your experiences in those early years with the kids. I'm wondering for young mums that are listening, or dads even, that are in the middle of that chaos, what's a piece of advice that you could give for them around being present in that moment despite the chaos?

0:12:07 - (Linda Habak): Don't mop your floors three times a day. Rest, sleep. And honestly, they have robo mops now.

0:12:15 - (Debbie Draybi): Just so you know.

0:12:16 - (Linda Habak): Well, very soon we're going to have AI robots. Very soon, I think. You know, I'm sure they're out there somewhere now testing it. If I could go back and the advice I'd give now to someone given that experience is really rest. Rest is critical because you have. Your cup has to be full in order to give others. And so how do you do that? And you have to work out. It's when you're young and you're in it, you don't know what you don't know.

0:12:47 - (Linda Habak): So I think give yourself some grace and it's okay if the house is messy or the floors are dirty for one day. Like just don't worry about it. Don't prioritise, prioritise being present with the kids. And something I'd say to myself, now my kids are adults now. I have a 20, 19 and 18 year old girls and they're glorious. Like I feel it is such a privilege to be a witness to their lives. They will disagree cause they think I'm annoying and constantly nagging. But I say to them all the time, I feel like it's such a privilege to watch you explore your life and your journey. And I'm not gonna agree with everything that they do and think and feel, but it truly is an honor to be witness to that. And I think that feeling has come from the chaos of when they were young.

0:13:37 - (Linda Habak): And I feel like it is what it is. I can't change that and I have to. And I have forgiven myself almost for being the way I was because I didn't have control over it. But I'm very cognizant now to be absolutely present in it. I'm really trying hard to be and just to be there and not set any sort of level of expectation. Despite me still yelling to come and pick up your washing, you know, clean the dishes, you know, all those basic things. But just to be present in it really and everything else will work itself out.

0:14:09 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah. So what I'm hearing is you can't change those early years. But what it's meant, it's redefined your parenting now and respecting and honouring the present moment in such a beautiful way that perhaps if you didn't have that sort of grief from the past, there wouldn't be that level of appreciation of now, the here and now.

0:14:30 - (Linda Habak): When you talk about parenting too, I realized when my kids had started high school I had a few incidents that happened where I realized I was parenting from a place of fear and not faith. When that mindset shift happened, it allowed me to have faith and trust not just in my child, because you do have to trust in your child, but actually in myself as a parent. We're not perfect, we don't know everything we are learning. There's no handbook, all of those things that you know, but actually just letting go and trusting.

0:15:05 - (Linda Habak): I think when I reflect, particularly being a of a Lebanese background, there's A lot of expectation. Being a Lebanese, first generation Lebanese parent, we're caught between the way our parents raised us, we're caught between these new ideologies that we have to live in and amongst. And it's very hard. And so my kids are second generation. I cannot expect that they are going to do the same things that I did. And despite seeing other parents who are similar to me, who were trying very hard to hold back and hold on, I can't prescribe to that. I have to just have faith and, yeah, parent from a place of faith, not fear.

0:15:47 - (Linda Habak): And that was a huge change in the way I parented.

0:15:52 - (Debbie Draybi): So just thinking about that from the design perspective, I know we've talked about the migration journey and navigating those cultural differences and it's almost like you're redesigning life and redesigning parenting in a way that's new compared to how our parents did it. Because we know that they parented by fear. Absolutely. Because they're new to a country and they're navigating a whole new world, really.

0:16:17 - (Debbie Draybi): So that fear was real because of that diversity, whereas we, we still carry some of those fears. But at the same time it's changed. There's been a shift with the next generation.

0:16:27 - (Linda Habak): One thing I've learnt from them is I think your child raises you in a way. So my parents have had to adjust and shift because I was a child that was curious and wanted to go and do things and study and take the train from Granville to the city to do a course in year 10 and I was allowed to do those things. Was my mother terrified? 100% was before mobile phones. And was she going into the Yellow Pages to find the number for the school to call the school to see that I had arrived?

0:16:57 - (Linda Habak): Yes, she was. And I was like, I'm so embarrassed. My mother called the school to check that I had arrived, but they had to adjust. They had to shift and move and change in order to give me space to explore who I needed to become. And that is the greatest gift that they could ever have given me.

0:17:16 - (Natalie Moujalli): There's such a fine line, isn't there, between letting go but holding firm at the same time?

0:17:21 - (Linda Habak): Yes.

0:17:22 - (Natalie Moujalli): Like it's constantly moving. I learned recently about this circle of security, which is a parenting approach, where there's two hands there and then one hand kind of sends them out into the world and the other hand receives them back. And whatever happens in that process at the time that they're out is such a challenge for the parent because you just want them back safely.

0:17:44 - (Linda Habak): Absolutely.

0:17:45 - (Natalie Moujalli): But you have to take that leap.

0:17:47 - (Linda Habak): Yeah. My eldest daughter went on a six week trip to Europe last year. I don't think I slept for six weeks. Thank God for life 360. But that's that whole year.

0:18:00 - (Debbie Draybi): That's what my kids call it.

0:18:02 - (Linda Habak): Yes, that was a non negotiable. They all have to be home. But it's that thing of you have to let them go and then be there to receive them too. And that's. Yeah, it's challenging and beautiful all at the same time.

0:18:16 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah, I think it's really important bringing in these challenges for parents. And I think a big thing that, you know, you've modelled is we do pivot, even in conversations. Often we start on a path but then we get led into a different one. And just being open to that, to allowing different ideas and experiences that we share with the world.

0:18:37 - (Linda Habak): Yeah, absolutely.

0:18:38 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah. Thinking about your career journey and just your life in general. And I know we talked a little bit around navigating guilt of success and having, you know, the life that you have and the life that you've built with your husband and your family different perhaps to the life that you had growing up. Navigating some of that guilt and tension around how to receive that openly with gratitude. And I know. Cause honestly, you're probably one of the most grateful people I've met.

0:19:10 - (Debbie Draybi): You constantly express gratitude whenever we talk. But also recognising and just being open to and appreciating it without that level of guilt which creeps up on us a lot.

0:19:21 - (Linda Habak): Yeah, it does that, that pesky little thing, guilt that sits on the shoulder. I don't know, is it Catholic guilt or is it migrational guilt? Because we know how much our parents, I mean, my parents took the last flight in 75 out of Lebanon. It was literally the last flight out of Beirut before they closed it down during the civil war for a year. So I didn't grow up feeling any of that. But I think it's subconscious. I think it's in, it's. We carry it, we must carry it in our genes, in our DNA. I don't know.

0:19:54 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah, I think I agree. Like recognising what they went through, the urgency of them having to pack up and leave, not by choice, by necessity, and what they had to leave behind, we do carry that. Absolutely. I think it's something that we share as a migrant, as a migrant community, not just Lebanese, all migrants. And thinking about the impact that then has and how that translates into, oh.

0:20:17 - (Linda Habak): I think it's made our generation very Determined. We don't want our parents, sacrifices to have gone to waste or not gone to waste. But I think subconsciously we feel like we need to work hard to achieve, to do well, to be successful, to make that sacrifice, sacrifice worth it. And I, you know, my mum and dad always say, like, thank God all of you are, you're healthy and you have healthy families and that's number one. But also you're standing up on your own two feet. You, you know, like, I think there's. They feel proud that they did something really good for their kids. They gave them this great opportunity.

0:20:56 - (Linda Habak): But coming back to the guilt. Yeah, I've had to, I've had to do a lot of work around that piece because I'm very conscious of, you know, I grew up in the western suburbs. I'm very open about that. I talk about it all the time. I'm very proud of that upbringing and it really is the foundation of who I, you know, just that, that sense of gratitude from where I've come from. And yes, my husband and I have worked very, very hard to achieve the things we have. But there for a very long time, there was a lot of, yeah, guilt around that. And I think it, I think it's probably a bit of shame.

0:21:33 - (Linda Habak): Like even when we renovated our house and when we moved back in, I think I was saying to you, for the first couple of years, I would almost feel embarrassed when someone came over. I would feel shame around it, which is ridiculous because we have worked so hard to achieve it.

0:21:52 - (Natalie Moujalli): Do you think that that's a cultural experience? Like, we love to see people succeed and there are a lot of successful people in our culture. And what I'm hearing you say that you've experienced a lot of shame or guilt around being able to enjoy the fruits of your success.

0:22:11 - (Linda Habak): I mean, you know, what is success though? Like, let's, like, I mean, there are people that are way. If you're just talking monetary. There are people with way more than we have. There are people with way less. So how do you define success? I think for me it was the shame was around, you know, my parents still live in the house that we moved into when I was 12 years old. My parents in law still live in the house that Jason was born in.

0:22:39 - (Linda Habak): And so there is this humility around me. This keeps it real. And so, you know, we've moved into a very nice suburb. Our kids go to very nice schools. They have very nice things. It took me a long time to reconcile where I had come from, where my parents my in Laws, you know, our cultural society had come from and where we were, that felt like a very big gap. But ultimately they're just material things.

0:23:09 - (Linda Habak): And really, health is everything. Faith is everything. Material things will come and go. You could lose it in a second. But that took me a long time to come to terms with that and actually sort of have some grace around the fact that. Because also respectfully. But the Lebanese do like to show the fruits of their labor. It can be a very performative culture. I'm trying to use diplomatic words, but it can be.

0:23:35 - (Linda Habak): And so there's a conflict in that too, because I think we're trying to keep it real, keep it down, keep it low, keep it, I don't know, suppressed, contained.

0:23:45 - (Debbie Draybi): Linda, it's a beautiful explanation just in terms of navigating those polarities. And sometimes I guess what I'm hearing and, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, it's almost like this sense of, I know you talk about shame, but almost abandonment of the two worlds that you've come from to now, really, it's a very different world and feeling like, well, which one do you belong in now? And where's your connections?

0:24:09 - (Linda Habak): But I do think as you age, I'm older, wiser, I care less about the perception of anything anymore. I'm very much about being completely in tune with me, with who I am, with my kids, with my husband, with my purpose in life, with my constant connect. My intuition is my connection to God. Like, I just have faith that whatever I am meant to do is coming through me, but through him ultimately. And I think I'm less impacted by those polarities now.

0:24:44 - (Linda Habak): I'm just at peace. I'm finding more peace around where things are at and trusting that that's where I meant to be, as opposed to a show of any sort or a perception. Because I think we walk around and, you know, we walk around in, like, these vacuum channels of. It's a perception of a perception. You just have to open up your social media. It's smok mirrors. 99% of the time, what you see is curated for a feed. It is not life.

0:25:13 - (Linda Habak): And so learning that too, and learning to disassociate and not compare and just be in your own lane and trust. That, I think, has been a big lifelong journey for me.

0:25:26 - (Debbie Draybi): I'm wondering, Linda, this is a big question, but do you feel deserving of the life that you've built?

0:25:33 - (Linda Habak): Gosh, I think if you asked me that 10 years ago, I probably. That's where the shame was at its peak. I was 49 now, so maybe around my 40s. No, I would have said, no, I don't feel deserving. But I think time and wisdom and hard work, like, I've spent the last 10 years trusting, you know, I went back and built a business. It wasn't intentional, but it sort of of. I just had an argument with God one day, and I'm like, dude, I've got all these feelings and frustrations. So either, you know, let me be happy with the life that I have.

0:26:09 - (Linda Habak): I have this amazing husband, kids, life is good on paper. Life is perfect. I should not feel this feeling of needing to do more. And literally two weeks later, I had someone call me and say, can you help me with my house? And I'm like, okay, God, great. That's. You've answered my prayer. Like, I. That's what I meant to do. So I went on a journey for the next day, sort of six or seven years, eight years of doing interior design.

0:26:32 - (Linda Habak): So I've worked very, very hard. And I think maybe because I've worked so hard and I haven't needed to work hard, but I've needed to work hard. Does that make sense? Like, my soul needed to do that for me to know that I had so much in me to give. And, yeah, my kids were at school and I didn't feel fulfilled. And so now, at 49, yes, I feel deserving, but I definitely haven't for a lot. You know, there were years of not feeling that way.

0:27:02 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah.

0:27:03 - (Linda Habak): I had a friend of mine, also Lebanese, very, very successful in her own right. Extremely. And she said to me one day, they're just people. Yeah, everyone's just a person. Everyone has a story. So I think also it's reframing, too. It's reframing. You know, what does success look like?

0:27:24 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah, I think that's a beautiful example, Linda, of just thinking about, for our listeners who are grappling with whether those feelings of being good enough, feeling they belong and that they are deserving, and they can show up at different tables to the tables they were raised in, and whether that's socioeconomic status, different demographics, culturally different suburbs. You know, we have postcode wars in Sydney. Let's not.

0:27:51 - (Debbie Draybi): Let's not pretend it's not there. There is a cultural div. Even the lebs in the inner west and the lebs in Western Sydney. And, you know, depending on the parish you're from, there are different demographic and dynamics. So just being able to have those conversations of, you are deserving, you're a child of God. And I think that's a really big point of what is it that helped you on your pathway to feel deserving, to feel like you're good enough and that you do belong and you have a right to be in any group.

0:28:18 - (Linda Habak): Yeah, I think years of work, just work on myself and you know, I touched on it before. I think it's layered with. And also it's a lot of reframing and mindset shifting. I had to. I feel in a lot of ways it was almost like a rehabilitation of the self to say, okay, you know, I grew up in the western suburbs. I'm a migrant kid. Like, I go back to the child. I think my life has been working towards getting back to the child. That Left School at 18, opened the yellow pages to find work experience at an advertising agency called Around Went. There was the only ethnic kid in the whole building.

0:29:00 - (Linda Habak): Had no idea I was clueless. I had no idea that I was different. The awareness came later in life that the lack of worthiness came later in life. And I go back and I go, why can't I be that 18 year old again? That 18 year old that didn't even know and I think didn't even question. Didn't even question. It was just being. Being authentically herself. Had a passion, explored it, doing it. And I think that's why this year I was able to launch the podcast because there was so much imposter lizard brain as you know. Cause, you know, I've wanted to do a podcast for so long and I just thought, no, I'm done. I'm done feeling that way. I'm done having the music inside of me and not allowing it to come out.

0:29:49 - (Debbie Draybi): I always talk about that, the how dare you voice that we have in our head. And I remember a guy in my work in our comms team asked me to test out the podcast idea. Are you serious? And the first thing in my head was, how dare you even think about that you could do something like that.

0:30:07 - (Linda Habak): What makes you the person? What gives you the right?

0:30:10 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah. And yet here he was, this young guy innocently saying, what do you mean? You'd be great at it? I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, it was just a completely foreign idea. And thinking about how in our culture, unfortunately, there is perhaps it's expectations or loyalty to where we started, that we don't have sort of the agency to do brave things that are new and unfamiliar.

0:30:36 - (Linda Habak): Yeah. I don't know where the. As I said, I think it's a rehabilitation of self. Like I'VE just had to push really hard, push myself, to catch those negative thoughts. And I say to the kids all the time, visualize catching the negative thought and throwing it to the left. And I literally do that visualization. And I won't prescribe to that. If I know it's intuitive and I feel it in my bones, in my heart, in my soul, I'm gonna pursue it. And courage, bravery, it's all those things. I don't know. I just know I have to do it, because if I don't, I'm gonna die wondering. And life is too short. Tomorrow is not promised. We have to.

0:31:15 - (Linda Habak): We have to try. And the struggle is, is that there is a level of expectation. You know, I think. I think the Lebanese culture, there is a prescription of what it looks like to be a mother with children and, you know, run. There is a little bit of that. And so, yeah, there's. For me, I've had to work a lot around redefining what that is for me. And I'm so blessed that I have a husband who could not be more supportive.

0:31:44 - (Natalie Moujalli): If you don't mind, Deb, I'm going to interject here because I'm finding myself having this experience.

0:31:51 - (Debbie Draybi): You don't need my permission to. You don't need my permission.

0:31:54 - (Natalie Moujalli): I feel so humbled sitting at this table, listening to the both of you speak, knowing your journey over the last couple of decades.

0:32:01 - (Debbie Draybi): Because we're older than you now.

0:32:02 - (Natalie Moujalli): They're not that much older, but you're both. And I'm sure the people listening would agree with this. Quite an inspiration to women who are watching or listening. So I just. I'd like to ask you both what's turning on me?

0:32:17 - (Linda Habak): Everyone, I would like to say Debbie, for years has been.

0:32:22 - (Debbie Draybi): Oh, my God. Now they're both.

0:32:24 - (Linda Habak): You are a total inspiration. Isn't she? She really is. And we need a moment to honor you, because all that you do for the community, for your children, for your work and the organization you work for, it's. You're incredible. And for your friends, like, we are still friends. We were in the same classes all through primary and high school. And, you know, it's such a blessing. I love Linda.

0:32:47 - (Debbie Draybi): Always makes me cry, by the way.

0:32:52 - (Natalie Moujalli): No, but truly, Deb, you are an inspiration. And we just want to hear kind of a little bit like, what would you share with people who are listening on how to persevere, be resilient, and succeed in the way that you understand success and have shown us and inspired us to do well?

0:33:10 - (Debbie Draybi): I guess a really Big one. And I'm sorry, I'm a bit emotional. Like I resonate with what Linda's saying and we always have that alignment in our thinking of, you know what, I don't feel like a success. I predominantly feel like a failure. I haven't shared on the podcast, but I'm divorced, so I have a failed marriage. You know, I'm a single mom and I struggle. Life is hard. But one of the things that you know, as Linda's saying, that negative thinking and those negative ideas, I've accepted that they're with me, but I don't own them anymore. And I find ways to separate from them and to come up with alternatives, but they're still there. Like they still creep up on me at times where I do feel judged or, you know, someone might criticise me for something.

0:33:53 - (Debbie Draybi): Not even deliberately, sometimes it's totally innocent because we live in a very traditional culture. We live in a religious community as well. And so I carry that stigma and that shame and that guilt and it's something that is not something that I will ever get rid of. I think it's just that entrenched. But I think acceptance that it's there and how do I coexist with it in a peaceful way. Because self doubt is not unique.

0:34:19 - (Debbie Draybi): Everyone has it. And I've had the privilege with working with my senior clinicians in New South Wales Health. And to me they look like they've got their life together, but then you talk to them and you understand, as you said before, Linda, they're just people too. And I guess seeing senior people be vulnerable about their own doubts, their imposter syndrome, because it's universal. No matter how successful you are or how people perceive you, that you've got your life together internally, you don't always feel that way.

0:34:51 - (Debbie Draybi): And you might show up very differently to how you feel internally. So I guess recognizing that and surrounding yourself with people that are like minded and support you and that they're your champions, they reflect who you want to be as well. So I don't know if that answers.

0:35:09 - (Natalie Moujalli): Your question now, but look, no, it just, it does. And I just want to, I want to thank you for showing up. Most of the feedback I get from the podcast is, oh my gosh, I love Debbie so much because she's so. Thank you for keeping it real. You've inspired so many people to keep it real because you've had the courage to do that and to not subscribe to that how dare you voice. So thank you.

0:35:33 - (Debbie Draybi): Well, you know, I try and cancel My subscription to that voice every year, but I still get the letter of subscribing. So. Yeah, look, I mean, I think the other thing that. Linda, you know, we so attuned in what you said about your kids. You know, my kids keep me real and I think I just have that honor and privilege of their openness with me. And they can be harsh sometimes, but I love that because it grounds me.

0:36:01 - (Debbie Draybi): And I think as a mum, being able to have that sort of relationship of openness and apologising to my kids. Cause I get it wrong all the time, but also modelling, really the only failure is the failure to learn. And we do make mistakes all the time. We get it wrong, but being able to learn from each other is such a beautiful thing that we have that our parents gifted us with.

0:36:23 - (Linda Habak): Absolutely, Absolutely.

0:36:24 - (Debbie Draybi): I just wondered, you've been doing your podcast, Linda, over the last year. What's been your key learning from that experience and what's something that, you know, you'll take with you in the new year as you continue to evolve this new venture?

0:36:40 - (Linda Habak): Staying on theme with the lizard brain and imposter syndrome. One of the things I talk about with almost every one of the creatives that I've had on the show is that no matter how successful you are in what you're doing, everyone has that voice. Our brain is designed that way to keep. Keep us in a fearful state and to stop us from doing things. And so even the most successful designers that I've had that have been in the game for 30 years and they still feel some level of imposter syndrome.

0:37:12 - (Linda Habak): So it's okay to have it. Acceptance around it is. Is good. But that should not stop us from continuing to grow and try and keep going. Because I would never have started it if I had listened to my imposter voice. There is no way this thing would have started. So I think we have to just catch the. Catch the voice, throw it to the left, do the sign of the cross and keep going.

0:37:37 - (Natalie Moujalli): And Linda, I just wanted to ask you, to the people who are listening, the people who are inspired, what's your kind of piece of advice for them?

0:37:48 - (Linda Habak): Stay true to who you are. Really connect with who you are, your soul. And don't prescribe to what you think it should look like or what you think perfection is like. Just be you, run your own race, be in your lane, have faith, pray. I think just really connect with who you are and the rest will fall into place.

0:38:08 - (Debbie Draybi): Thank you for your openness, Linda, and thank you for modelling vulnerability. Because there's different ways of doing it. And you he showed up, you know, in such an incredible way today.

0:38:17 - (Linda Habak): Thank you so much for having me.

0:38:25 - (Debbie Draybi): I hope this episode has helped you find sanctuary in this exciting journey of life. All of the resources we've mentioned in this episode are found in the podcast Notes. If you need some assistance with any of the topics discussed in today's episode, then please visit Our website website HSHL.orgau if you have any thoughts, comments or ideas, please leave us a comment on Spotify. Alternatively, send us an email@adminhshl.org

0:38:56 - (Debbie Draybi): au you and your mental health matters to us, and we hope you get one step closer in finding sanctuary. Bye for now.