Integenerational Trauma - Claudia Chakar

Claudia Chakar has spent over 20 years helping Australian families untangle intergenerational trauma and build stronger connections. As a clinical psychotherapist specialising in family and couples therapy, Claudia understands that healing often means examining family patterns passed down through generations. 

Her trauma-informed approach has made her a respected voice in mental health circles, particularly within Lebanon's Australian community where cultural sensitivity meets psychological expertise.

Key Takeaways:

• Invisible Wounds: Intergenerational trauma can travel unnoticed through family lines, manifesting in modern-day conflicts and psychological disorders.
• Importance of Therapy: Professional help is crucial for individuals and families to heal from trauma and learn adaptive coping mechanisms.
• Community Involvement: Healing from intergenerational trauma requires a collective response from institutions, communities, and individuals.
• Role of Empathy: Empathy and understanding are essential to facilitate healing and overcome the stigma associated with mental health issues.
• Breaking the Cycle: Addressing trauma is imperative not only for individual health but also to prevent the continuation of trauma into future generations.

Notable Quotes:

• "You do not have to live by the story of what happened to you because you deserve to live a life of the highest potential." – Claudia Chakar
• "Trauma needs a lot of empathy. It needs empathy to heal and recover." – Claudia Chakar
• "Intergenerational trauma really needs a community response, not just a family response or an individual response." – Claudia Chakar
• "We know a lot more now… we need to act differently." – Claudia Chakar
• "Suffering in silence doesn't serve anybody any good." – Claudia Chakar

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Transcript

0:00:00 - (Debbie Draybi): Warning. This episode contains confronting topics and issues. If you need help, please contact Beyond Blue. For more information and resources, please Visit our website HSHL.orgau you get the chance.

0:00:15 - (Claudia Chakar): To rewrite your story. You can be the author of your new story. You do not have to live by the story of what happened to you because you deserve to live a life of the highest potential. You deserve to heal and recover from whatever happened to you.

0:00:35 - (Debbie Draybi): Welcome to Finding Sanctuary. Our shared conversations into how we think and feel and how we find peace and comfort in daily life. We get together with experts to chat about all things mental health, getting insights and understanding on the struggles of life. Really excited today, I've got Eddie Reich joining me again as a co host. How are you, Eddie?

0:00:58 - (Eddie Reaiche): Yeah, really good, thanks.

0:00:59 - (Debbie Draybi): Today we're gonna be exploring in our culture, in Lebanese culture. You know, we often say, and we've said this a lot in our podcast, family's Everything. But what happens when things, you know, that's supposed to be our greatest strength, that bring us together can become our greatest struggle, particularly when there's conflict in family. We've got a special guest to talk about the invisible wounds that travel through generations and how to break that cycle, particularly when we're worried about breaking the cycle, but also honouring our culture and our family heritage.

0:01:32 - (Debbie Draybi): I'd like to introduce Claudia Shakar, who's a clinical psychotherapist. Claudia's got over 20 years clinical experience working with families as a family therapist and a couples therapist. And Claudia's work has been specialised in understanding and building connections with families, particularly in the context of intergenerational trauma. And really excited to have you here, Claudia, thanks for joining us.

0:01:55 - (Claudia Chakar): Thank you for having me, Claudia.

0:01:57 - (Debbie Draybi): You know, we've had lots of conversations on this podcast about family conflict, when tensions build up and the challenges that parents have. When we've been talking together, we've been exploring that, particularly in your work, you see that often these are patterns that are not new, they've been passed on from generations. Just like we inherit our genetics, we often inherit some of our emotional baggage.

0:02:19 - (Claudia Chakar): That's exactly right.

0:02:21 - (Debbie Draybi): And so we wanted to unpack that with you. Cause I know you do a lot of work in that and what you talk about often described in the field as intergenerational trauma. So I wanted to just talk, talk to you a bit about what that means and how it's influenced your work and some of the things that you do in that space.

0:02:37 - (Claudia Chakar): So I'm going to start by defining what intergenerational trauma is. First it is when trauma, significant trauma, has been passed down from one generation to the other. So the impact of the trauma experience actually gets passed down to the next generation by the way they've observed others behave around it or with it. And it's not something that is conscious, it's something that at the time, our ancestors would not have known about, you know, what this behaviour, what this trauma was going to do and how it was going to impact.

0:03:12 - (Claudia Chakar): So with the intergenerational trauma, it's widespread, it's a new phenomenon? Well, it's not new, it's very old. But we're just starting to understand more about it at the moment. I'm going to start with the example of the First Nations. You know, as the whole world knows, the intergenerational trauma that happened to our first nations, with the stolen generation, with oppression, genocide and injustices.

0:03:38 - (Claudia Chakar): We're still living that trauma today, thousands of years on, and it still is impacting, and we all hear about it, we know what it is. So that's one really significant example that we need to understand. And we're living in it, living in Australia, and we're seeing it firsthand of the impact at the moment. What we are seeing, or what we do know, is we have a huge influx of refugees. A great deal of refugees are situated in Western Sydney.

0:04:06 - (Claudia Chakar): So what that means is that we are actually experiencing intergenerational traumas from their dislocation, from their migration process, from, you know, losing everything and really experiencing severe oppression, enslavement, abuse and aggression. Intergenerational trauma is in our backyards. The chances of any of us coming across someone who's been significantly traumatised is quite high. We need to really be prepared to know how are we going to understand their dilemmas, how we're going to understand their experiences, so we know how to work with our neighbours.

0:04:43 - (Claudia Chakar): So it's really important that we all are on board. And it's across communities, institutions, services that we will come across. We are coming across people who are traumatised intergenerationally.

0:04:55 - (Eddie Reaiche): Claudia, can I just ask you, what sort of examples in your practice have you seen when it comes to intergenerational trauma?

0:05:03 - (Claudia Chakar): Well, the most presenting one would be a disconnection in the family or a dysregulation in how they communicate with each other, how they manage conflict. So sometimes we might see a family member presenting with a psychological condition or presenting problem, the child. When we assess that and unpack that, you know, it could be that the child is carrying the weight of the trauma of that family that's never been talked about.

0:05:31 - (Claudia Chakar): So it's been suppressed for a very long time. But it's leaking out into many scenarios in the household. Whether it's over parenting, whether it's anxiety, depression, whether it's addiction, domestic violence and anxiety is quite high. And the origins or the essence of what started all this, it's really hard to trace back. So what I do is I do a genogram. You know, kind of draw a family map to get an understanding of, you know, where did this family start from, what is their journey, what's their story?

0:06:06 - (Claudia Chakar): And so when we do, like a timeline to see, you know, where did it all start from? And you can really trace it and see how families have endured a lot of pain and suffering that's never been spoken about. And it caused a disconnection or dysregulation in the family system.

0:06:21 - (Eddie Reaiche): Just for our listeners, a genogram is like a family tree. It's an invaluable tool when we use it with families as well as couples, just to try and get look at patterns that have come from previously and see if there's patterns from each generation and see if they come through. And you can sort of almost pick why people act the way they do. And then when you present it to your clients, I guess it's such an eye opener for them when they see it in front of them, because it's a graphical model and a lot of us appreciate pictures more than we do words.

0:06:55 - (Claudia Chakar): Exactly.

0:06:56 - (Eddie Reaiche): And so I think it's a very valuable tool.

0:06:58 - (Claudia Chakar): Yeah. Yeah, you're right, Eddie. When I have done genograms with families who are traumatised, you can really see where, say, for example, the great grandparent might have died by suicide and the family or the message that gets passed down, oh, no, great grandpa died of a heart attack. Sometimes it's also secrets that are kept within the families because of shame and guilt. However it leaks out, and when it leaks out, it really does cause a lot of conflict because family members, they want to know their ancestors experience because we'll see it. There'll be mental illness within the family. There'll be addiction, there'll be domestic violence, there'll be dysregulation, there'll be estrangement is massive in families at the moment.

0:07:43 - (Claudia Chakar): You know, I don't like the values, I don't like the beliefs. I'm out of here. Or it causes a lot of cutoffs. So, yeah, genograms really help to map the family's history, and it makes so much sense to the family members. They get it.

0:07:58 - (Debbie Draybi): You've talked a lot in this podcast around finding ways to understand yourself. And a big part of what you're describing is understanding your past and your family history. Not to blame the past or your ancestors for what they did or didn't do, but to more get a better sense of who you are and how it's impacting you in the here and now.

0:08:21 - (Claudia Chakar): Yeah, absolutely. So, for example, if we have a family who experienced significant poverty or neglect or abuse, they might be a family that spends really minimal because they still have the idea of, oh, we better save money for a rainy day, because they saw their families and the previous ancestors just go without. So money becomes a theme in their life in how they perceive that, you know, what does money mean to the family? How does everyone function around the money within the family?

0:08:51 - (Claudia Chakar): It can cause a lot of problems. For example, because of that trauma of going without, that one wants to spend, you know, and just enjoy and splurge and another one wants to save for a rainy day. So you start to see how, you know, that experience alters how people behave within family systems.

0:09:10 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah, that's a really good example. We've been talking quite a bit about that. Often there are conflict in families around the relationship with money and spending money.

0:09:19 - (Claudia Chakar): So deprivation and, you know, going without. And sometimes people just want to recompensate that, you know, say, no, I've been there, done that, I want to now live.

0:09:29 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah. So Claudia, as a family therapist, you know, you've got a lot of experience and you've given us some beautiful examples of trauma and how it shows up in indigenous communities in more recently with refugees arriving. I know when we had a chat earlier, we talked about even for Lebanese families in our community, there has been a lot of war related trauma. And Lebanese didn't come here as refugees.

0:09:53 - (Debbie Draybi): They predominantly came here as migrants. I often find that I know when I was doing a lot of clinical work in our community that people are surprised by the level of war related trauma, even though there's no real refugee status for our community.

0:10:08 - (Claudia Chakar): Yes, as we know, all of our families came for a better life for many, many reasons. As the war erupted in Lebanon, more families came to get away from that trauma. So what we do see is that families who haven't expressed trauma or don't know what trauma is, the triggers that occur within, say, couples or families is very strong. Because when trauma is not talked about, when it's not communicated, when it's not well understood, it is going to Leak out. It is going to manifest in behavioural problems, in conflict, in domestic violence, in addiction, in drinking, in kind of disrupting the whole family system.

0:10:48 - (Claudia Chakar): Now, you're not going to know that you've been triggered by your early experiences of the war. But until something happens or you have a breakdown or major depressive disorder, or you're grieving something, or even if you have a loss in Lebanon, it takes you back to the many losses. You start counting your losses and it can really get people down and cause a lot of anxiety. But yet family members may not know what's going on.

0:11:13 - (Claudia Chakar): You know, a family member started to misbehave or to become disordered in their thinking or they've got maladaptive strategies to cope with that trauma. So this is when it gets quite confusing and it escalates without knowing the essence of.

0:11:31 - (Debbie Draybi): Reminds me of Eddie. As Claudia's talking, you've reflected with your clinical work, it's never about the dishes. Often. Often it is.

0:11:39 - (Claudia Chakar): We say that, don't we?

0:11:41 - (Debbie Draybi): Often it is. There's a lot of problem behaviors, whether it's addiction, whether it's abuse, whether it's constant tension and arguments, it's underneath that. What you're describing is it could be related to significant traumas.

0:11:55 - (Claudia Chakar): Oh, absolutely. So growing up, of course you're going to pick up on role model behaviour. What your father did or what your grandfather did, what was the expectations of the roles of, say, men and women traditionally, but now when you migrate to another country, those roles reverse or there is a higher expectations that couples work and they share the children and the household and the responsibilities.

0:12:18 - (Claudia Chakar): But if the value system or the beliefs of one partner is no, I like to keep to my role. I'm not going to share this because it's not my role, but where we're living now at the moment. And with the financial, economic status, the fact is families have to really work in partnership because one partner can't do it on their own. So we get into these arguments and conflicts about role reversal. Who's doing what rather than working as a team.

0:12:45 - (Claudia Chakar): And it doesn't matter who does what. You know, who's good at what. If you're good at cooking, take that on board. If you're good at managing finance, do that. But they do reverse back to what they saw.

0:12:56 - (Eddie Reaiche): You know, Claudia, you were mentioning about roles and how important it is. I wonder if there's a transitional issue because we're going from one generation to a new generation. We're now talking about second generation Australians and we've got an Australian culture which is quite different from the Lebanese culture, but we're starting to marry outside our culture now, and I wonder if we're still holding on. Do you find people are still holding on to their culture even though they're in a new culture or a.

0:13:27 - (Claudia Chakar): Absolutely. I think some people are choosing what really works for them, what they hold dear in values and beliefs. They're letting go of things that it's not important to them. But when you're marrying two cultures, you've got to take the good and the bad with both. It really does require a lot of negotiation and compromise to live with difference. You know, people are scared of difference, but it's like, how can these two different worlds come together rather than create a conflict?

0:13:53 - (Claudia Chakar): How well do you understand each other's cultural backgrounds, even trauma backgrounds, to really come together? Because what we see is couples are constantly triggered when they argue. And you would have heard or you would have seen couples saying, don't talk to me like that. You sound like just my father. Or the husband might say, don't you talk to me like that. You sound like just my mother. She was always critical. I was never good enough.

0:14:16 - (Claudia Chakar): You know, and these are triggers that are constantly talking to couples, but yet it's not registering for them. You know, so they'll argue and then they'll start carrying on about or swearing about this and that. But they're missing the point about understanding the emotional needs and attachments that need to be explored. So what we get, what we're struggling with is how do we get Lebanese couples getting to couples therapy? You know, how do we get families coming to therapy to heal, to recover?

0:14:43 - (Claudia Chakar): But there's a level of shame around seeking help, I believe, like, as a cultural expectation. Oh, no, you know, let's keep it in the family. Let's, you know, Tate, you know, talk it through, or the elder of the family. But the fact is, they're not professionals. And because we're seeing chronic trauma that has happened repeatedly, you really need a professional to know how to manage that, how to handle that with couples and families?

0:15:09 - (Claudia Chakar): Because if everyone's operating from a trauma perspective, then who's going to be the peacemaker and the karma and the. The regulator, you know, in the family?

0:15:19 - (Eddie Reaiche): Especially when we start talking about infidelity, that gets really messy because the armies start building, everyone on one side, then someone on another, and everything's about their needs, not the couple's needs.

0:15:30 - (Claudia Chakar): And so absolutely tears them apart. It's a war zone, absolute war zone. So when we do like the family tree. And you can actually see somehow there might have been a permission somewhere within that family tree that someone had a betrayal of trust of some kind. It could be being ripped off, you know, investment wise. It could be a betrayal of trust, could be on all levels, not just relationships. And so that is another level of trauma.

0:15:57 - (Claudia Chakar): Now, when families or couples are facing this significant trauma, what they're forgetting is that their children are experiencing that secondhand trauma because of their dysregulation, because the conflict is high, because Mum and Dad aren't smiling, they're not sitting together to eat. Dad's not here, Mum's not here. So we really have to be careful. How do you contain that trauma so that it doesn't spill over and we end up having that intergenerational trauma on and on and on.

0:16:23 - (Claudia Chakar): How do we intervene early to really equip people, even in dealing in the most horrible betrayal? You know, how do we put boundaries in place? How do we attend to first aid mental health?

0:16:35 - (Debbie Draybi): I'm wondering, you know, for our listeners who might be hearing this for the first time, these ideas, and recognise that perhaps there has been a trauma in their family that's been passed on and they're curious about getting help. It might be something that maybe thought about but never really taken that next step. What's your advice for them, particularly when counselling is something they've heard about, never really experienced, and they've kind of always been loyal to their family to not really talk about these.

0:17:09 - (Eddie Reaiche): Great question, great question.

0:17:10 - (Claudia Chakar): Yeah, it is, isn't it? So, first of all, trauma needs a lot of empathy. It needs empathy to heal and recover. Now, it depends who he's of the trauma, who knows about the trauma. If there is a family member that is quite close and can influence the family to get help and really talking about encouraging. I'll go with you, I'll make the appointment for you. Or I'll find someone, I'll do some research, find someone encouraging them to just give it a go and see how they feel.

0:17:44 - (Claudia Chakar): Because trauma sits in the body and it's going to make them very, very sick if it goes on untreated. So this is one thing too. How do you approach a family member? Look, you don't look well, you're seeming just flat. I'm sure there's a lot going on. You know, you're not yourself. You used to be smiling, you used to be. Be approachable, but we just find you disconnected, withdrawn, not coming to family events.

0:18:08 - (Claudia Chakar): You know what's really going on. It has to be approached in a very friendly invitation rather than feeling judged or criticized because you're not yourself, but you're pretending to be. But it's not working. So we really have to treat it very carefully. You know, find help them, ask them, can I help you? Or get somebody that they listen to or they trust within the family to get them that help. It could even be, you know, somebody at church, can be any. Any service that they access, even the gp can be a really good point of call to really understand. You could be going through post traumatic stress disorder without you knowing, but you're presenting with all the symptoms of sleep disturbance and nightmares and flashbacks of ruminations.

0:18:52 - (Debbie Draybi): I think GPS is a really important one. I'm not sure that we've talked about it a lot on here. You've already got an established relationship with your doctor, being able to talk to them and they are trained to assess your mental health and refer you to a specialist and they have that ability to do that, particularly when you already trust them and they know your family and perhaps they can see the patterns in the family already.

0:19:15 - (Claudia Chakar): Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

0:19:17 - (Eddie Reaiche): It's interesting, isn't it, when we look at people who, if you've got a medical condition, everyone's got this amazing specialist, amazing doctor. The referral list is so massive.

0:19:28 - (Claudia Chakar): There's a waiting list.

0:19:29 - (Eddie Reaiche): There's a waiting list. But when it's mental health, it's like, no, let's keep it in the family.

0:19:34 - (Claudia Chakar): Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:19:35 - (Eddie Reaiche): Why can't we treat it exactly the same way as a medical illness?

0:19:38 - (Claudia Chakar): Absolutely. And we look at it like, if a family member had cancer, would you let them not get treatment for it? So trauma is like a cancer. If you don't get treated for it, it's going to get back to atlas, you know, it's terminal. So we really have to reframe and rephrase how we look at and how we look at mental illness within family systems and couples.

0:19:59 - (Debbie Draybi): I think that's a really important one that I've heard clinicians compare it to a physical issue. Would you question getting help for that and being able to do that in the same way with your mental health, you wouldn't question it with your physical health, you'd be at the doctor talking about it openly and you wouldn't get that message in families that, no, we can treat the broken leg because you.

0:20:21 - (Claudia Chakar): Can physically see it.

0:20:23 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah. Recognizing that families can sometimes collude to keep it hidden when it comes to mental health and to feel like they need to sort it out on Their own.

0:20:32 - (Claudia Chakar): Absolutely.

0:20:32 - (Debbie Draybi): But you need a trained professional, as you're saying, these are very complex issues that didn't start with you. They started it's not your fault from generations ago.

0:20:40 - (Claudia Chakar): It's not your fault because you should.

0:20:43 - (Debbie Draybi): Blame your parents, people you got permission.

0:20:45 - (Eddie Reaiche): Seven up will not help.

0:20:47 - (Claudia Chakar): And we really have to get the message out there that it is not your fault. Your trauma is not your fault. Your trauma is not who you are, it's just a part of a story of your life.

0:20:57 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah, I think that's another really big one. Thinking about and understanding. Often in mental health, there's a level of self blame that goes on that you wouldn't see in physical health. Some people don't blame themselves for getting cancer or, you know, having a chronic physical issue. But yet there's still this sense of responsibility for, you know, if you do experience mental health or issues, coping with your emotions.

0:21:23 - (Debbie Draybi): So being able to think about that. And is there blame going on? Is there self blame, parent blame?

0:21:30 - (Eddie Reaiche): Because we forget that everybody has their own traumas and we forget that our parents have done their best they can with what tools they have.

0:21:37 - (Claudia Chakar): Exactly.

0:21:38 - (Eddie Reaiche): And maybe they got it wrong, but they didn't know how to get it right.

0:21:42 - (Claudia Chakar): They didn't know. They didn't know back then, you know, thousands of years ago, they did not know. It just got passed down. Yeah.

0:21:48 - (Debbie Draybi): So we know a lot more now. I mean, you've talked about that. We know more about trauma, we understand it better. But what I'm hearing from you is that we need to act differently. Not just have the knowledge, but do something different with it.

0:22:02 - (Claudia Chakar): With intergenerational trauma, it really needs a community response, not just a family response or an individual response. It needs an entire community response. So we need to be very well resourced in knowing about trauma, understanding it, being able to identify, you know, how people are presenting across all levels, be it the medical fields, be it allied health, be it ministers, priests, what have you, institutions, school services.

0:22:33 - (Claudia Chakar): We really need to start thinking, encouraging this trauma informed practice wherever we go, because we do come across them all the time, but we just don't know it because like we said, you can't see it. You know, it's not a physical illness, it's more a psychological illness. But how do we all become very well informed to deal with this and particularly with intergenerational.

0:22:57 - (Debbie Draybi): As you said, not only can't you see it, but you also haven't experienced it directly.

0:23:01 - (Claudia Chakar): That's right.

0:23:02 - (Debbie Draybi): It's been a trauma that's been passed on. I Mean, often we use the word vicarious, like it's something that didn't happen to you directly, it happened in your family, maybe generations ago, but it's still there and it still has an impact.

0:23:15 - (Claudia Chakar): And we really have to look at that secondhand trauma, how it gets passed down, and we really have to advocate for children who are being exposed to these kinds of maladaptive behaviours. So this is why we need to act fast. We need to act right now in whatever position we hold, even teachers, schools.

0:23:34 - (Eddie Reaiche): The hard part is therapists like yourself are offering their services and there's a lot of therapists who are offering their services, but it's up to people to take that off opportunity and help themselves so they can help the next generation. Because there's so much to learn about being in a family, being in a relationship and then having your own family. And then what you can pass on is something a lot more dynamic than, unfortunately, what's been passed on previously.

0:24:03 - (Claudia Chakar): Absolutely. And, you know, we need to honor trauma. It needs the empathy lens, if you like, but, you know, sometimes people are ashamed of it, they feel guilty. But we really need to honor it, to heal and recover from it.

0:24:17 - (Debbie Draybi): If listeners out there are feeling that sort of. That shame and guilt, it's been carried on, that's intergenerational too, because we know we pass on our shame.

0:24:26 - (Claudia Chakar): Yes. Don't tell anyone.

0:24:27 - (Debbie Draybi): Lebanese are very good at that.

0:24:28 - (Claudia Chakar): Yes. Don't tell. You know, don't let the cat out of the bag.

0:24:31 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah, it's a big one. We know that it exists in a lot of traditional cultures, not just Lebanese, but it's. You know, we talk a lot to our community, obviously, but thinking about that, for our listeners hearing that and have grappled with fear and shame of opening up and really getting help, what's your advice to them around that? If it's something that really is getting.

0:24:52 - (Claudia Chakar): In the way, I want to really normalise what they're feeling, number one. And I really want to validate any person listening who has experienced trauma. I want to encourage any listeners that do not suffer in silence. Don't let this kind of suffering invade the rest of your world. One thing about therapy interventions is that we do know you get the chance to rewrite your story. You can be the author of your new story. You do not have to live by the story of what happened to you.

0:25:24 - (Claudia Chakar): It's really important that you know, it's validated, it's understood, it's normalized, it's encouraged, because you deserve to live a life of the highest potential. You deserve to heal and recover from whatever happened to you. So suffering in silence doesn't serve anybody any good.

0:25:43 - (Debbie Draybi): Claudia, I know there's a lot of parents listening and we get lots of comments from parents around how they can prepare their children for the world. You talk about showing up as your best self, but they want to show up as the best parents they can possibly be. And when we're talking about intergenerational trauma, I'm curious about that. How do we prepare our kids to be able to deal with those traumas and to, you know, think about how it's gonna impact them and deal with it in their future.

0:26:10 - (Debbie Draybi): So just my question is, how do we prepare our kids?

0:26:13 - (Claudia Chakar): Absolutely, Debbie. It's a really good, and it's a very important question. Number one is in order to prepare our kids to not be exposed to trauma or secondhand trauma, we really need to treat our own trauma first. It's almost like putting on the oxygen mask first. As a parent, you know, when we travel, it's the first thing they tell you. Put it on and then help everybody else. So it's very difficult.

0:26:37 - (Claudia Chakar): If you cannot provide a safe environment for your children to grow and thrive because you are disordered, because you are in addiction, because you are depressed and anxious and you're not getting help, it is not fair, you're not doing them any justice. The kids jobs is just to thrive and be loved and you know, who's playing with me, who's feeding me, who's picking me up, who's, you know, our job as adults is to be so responsible for the way we behave in front of them because they are soaking it all up.

0:27:08 - (Claudia Chakar): To prevent secondhand trauma, we've really got to take accountability of our own behaviours, thoughts and beliefs and how we conduct ourselves in front of them. We're the role models.

0:27:19 - (Eddie Reaiche): It's a great way to put that. I think it's really important because we talk about role models, we talk about people we look up to and we talk about children and how they grow. Because the early years is just as important as the later years because this is how they develop now. If they're exposed to not being nurtured and they're exposed to all different things where they're not being able to be picked up when they're needed. They don't feel that love, they don't feel that security, we're now creating a new generation of trauma and unless we know, we can't really move forward.

0:27:53 - (Claudia Chakar): Absolutely, Eddie. And one thing I'd really Like, to get the message out is that social media is very destructive. So we've got parents very busy on their phones. We've got parents emotionally unavailable to attend. They're busy with other things. So you can have an entire family disconnected from each other because everyone's on a gadget. So how do we expect communication to occur in a family system?

0:28:17 - (Claudia Chakar): How do we expect to know what's happening to children if we don't find the time, if we don't say, okay, all the gadgets go in the basket. We're only allowed to have them for half an hour today. There's a lot of anxiety within the current generation, and it's stemming definitely from social media and limit your use of it. Absolutely, absolutely. Don't just, you know, don't just say, you know, consequences. You've got to be the role model.

0:28:42 - (Claudia Chakar): You don't need to know everything that's going on in the world. You don't need to, you know, respond to everything. Right now, not everything is urgent, but your kids are witness to everything you are thinking and doing and behaving in the world.

0:28:55 - (Eddie Reaiche): These kids are observational learners. You can tell them all you want, they won't learn. But what you do, what they see, is what they will learn, and that's important.

0:29:03 - (Claudia Chakar): Exactly, Eddie. And that's how intergenerational trauma manifested itself in families, because of what they saw, what they heard. So the five senses are, what are children hearing, what are they seeing, what are they smelling, what are they touching, and what are they tasting? You know, and so intergenerational trauma can also be passed on from the senses.

0:29:25 - (Eddie Reaiche): In your experience, where you've seen couples have come in, the main factors that contribute. What would you say majority of the couples have come in with? What would be the main factors?

0:29:36 - (Claudia Chakar): I would say managing conflict. Managing conflict could be, he doesn't listen to me, she doesn't listen to me. Escalation of conflict. But when you dig deep, deep, deep, deep, you know, you can always pick out a trauma. And I'm always. When I'm doing a couple's assessment, I'm always interested in their mental health state. Any trauma experiences, any, even. Like, if you've had a miscarriage or loss of.

0:29:58 - (Claudia Chakar): Of a child or a recent loss of a parent, all that can contribute to what's brought them here. Grief can bring people here. You know, sometimes if we do those timeline journeys, we see the theme in this couple's life has been nothing but trauma and grief. No wonder they. They're disconnected. No wonder that their friendship's gone out the window. So managing conflict would have to be a big one. Another one is addiction.

0:30:21 - (Claudia Chakar): Addiction is very invasive. Drugs and alcohol, gambling, pornography is another big major betrayal of trust in a relations. Also violence. It's really shocking what's going on. But when it's well treated, well managed, well understood, then couples can recover from that.

0:30:41 - (Eddie Reaiche): What about external influences in a relationship?

0:30:44 - (Claudia Chakar): Major external influences. We call them triangulations. So anybody that interferes in a couple's relationship triangulates them. Whether it's, you know, the parents in law, whether it's a friend, whether it's, you know, friends, you know, oh, don't worry about it. Just come out and have some fun. Anything that takes the couple away from their connection, you know, becomes a triangulated relationship. Even addiction can be the triangulation in the relationship, you know, another, another person.

0:31:14 - (Claudia Chakar): So we really have to help them understand how that external factor, external person is influencing them and pulling them left and right. So the couples feel that they just don't have the strength to overcome. But couples usually know what they want. They just need the tools to get there.

0:31:31 - (Eddie Reaiche): And the right guidance.

0:31:32 - (Claudia Chakar): And the right guidance. Yeah. You're on a bridge and you want to know how to cross this bridge safely, but you need help to cross this bridge.

0:31:39 - (Debbie Draybi): And what does help look like with? I mean, you've given us a great description of some of the issues that couples come with. How do you take them on that journey to help them change their story?

0:31:52 - (Claudia Chakar): I'm always interested in what brought the couple to see me right now, because sometimes the problems have been going on for years. What's changed for them now, like what's the turning point? And it could be that an event might have happened within the family or within the child, or with a loss that's really brought everything to the surface. Something like a partner might be complaining about. You're never there for me.

0:32:15 - (Claudia Chakar): You're always emotionally unavailable. I ask you one thing to support me through this and you can't even do that. A lot of blaming and shaming. If we look at the history of the relationship, we see that one partner may struggle, may struggle to provide that emotional need and attachment. We may need to look at, you know, what's stopping that person, what's going on there? What are the barriers to understanding why they disconnect when they're needed, why they can't get too close when the partner needs them, when they understand it, then they can work with it.

0:32:50 - (Claudia Chakar): But if a couple come and say they're blaming and Shaming each other and pointing the finger. We're not going to get anywhere. So we need to really help them to be open about, you know, solution focused interventions or emotionally focused therapies around, you know, bringing back that connection, that emotional connection. Because once upon a time they were in love. Once upon a time they were attracted to each other.

0:33:13 - (Claudia Chakar): Once upon a time they loved each other. What happened? So we need to help them restore the friendship back into the relationship. Because another reason why relationships are breaking down, apart from all the betrayals and addictions, is emotional disengagement over time. You know, we're almost like you're just losing each other. You don't know who you are anymore, you don't know what the goals are, you don't know what your partner's thinking. Feeling it's almost like, you know you've lost is like a flatmate. You're just living together but not really connected.

0:33:44 - (Debbie Draybi): So really trying to bring that back in, bring the, remind them the things that they've lost.

0:33:48 - (Claudia Chakar): Yeah.

0:33:49 - (Debbie Draybi): Getting them not to just understand what's going on, but how to reconnect again.

0:33:53 - (Claudia Chakar): Absolutely. And that's what everybody wants. Everybody longs for attachment and connection and once you lose that, you can't cope. You know, all sorts of things are happening for you emotionally.

0:34:05 - (Debbie Draybi): And do you see people changing? Like, is it something that you.

0:34:07 - (Claudia Chakar): Oh, absolutely. If I didn't, then I wouldn't be doing this, would I? I'd be giving it up. I think also couples need to be mindful that you can't resolve everything all at once. You know, we start out maybe initially once a fortnight or it depends on the intensity of the situation, the severity of the presenting problem might need to be weekly to restore safety or to restore stability or. And then we move on to fortnightly, once every three, then we go on to do check ins once a month so that there is that continuity of therapy. They're not kind of falling off the wagon again, again.

0:34:45 - (Claudia Chakar): So they're accountable to somebody and you, you remind them, you know, in the last session you said this, but you're doing that. What happened? You know, you were doing really well and now you've come back to say you're fighting again, what went on. So really help them to re. Engage and to see the pattern, the cycle of interaction that becomes the problem. But yeah, of course. And you, you love it when you see couples thriving, leaving the office, smiling and holding hands or you know, giving each other a cuddle because they've managed to repair some wounds that have happened even with families.

0:35:18 - (Claudia Chakar): That's the ultimate goal for therapists, is to really give others the tools and the skills to manage on their own eventually.

0:35:27 - (Eddie Reaiche): I think it's important for everyone to know when we talk about relationships, it can be mother and daughter, mother and father, son and father, son and daughter. There's all kinds of relationships that need mending. They go so far and so deep, it really changes the way they see the world. Once you've repaired a lot of those ruptures. So that must be really fulfilling for you when you do that.

0:35:50 - (Claudia Chakar): It is very fulfilling. It's also lots of hard work because sometimes the bitterness, resentfulness lingers on and sometimes being able to let go and find forgiveness is really difficult. But they've got to come to recreate the alliance. You know, we need to understand what is it that gets people estranged from each other or the cutoff? Why do they think this is the only option they had at the time?

0:36:16 - (Claudia Chakar): So usually when people disconnect, become dysregulated, shut down, withdraw and find that there's no other alternative, it is quite damaging, it is quite significant because it affects the whole rest of the extended family. Or we can't invite them over because they don't get along, or we can't tell them that they come over just in case they find out and so why didn't you tell me to come? So there's all these scenarios that go on and on and hence puts the family in that anxious state.

0:36:43 - (Claudia Chakar): So we really need to manage that and find out what's going on. How do we bring them back together? How do we get people to invest in relationships? Because I think people are investing in everything else but relationships these days.

0:36:57 - (Debbie Draybi): I think that's a beautiful way to frame it. Claudia, thinking about going to counseling is an investment in your relationship and finding ways to reinvest, particularly when there's been so much conflict and being able to rewrite your story in a positive way.

0:37:13 - (Claudia Chakar): I really would encourage every listener to get the help that they need. Yeah, like I said earlier on, not to suffer in silence because you cannot do this journey on your own. There is nothing wrong with seeking help. There's a lot of help around. You've just got to reach out and really living the best of you. You deserve to live the best life. You deserve to have the best of your mental health and well being.

0:37:38 - (Claudia Chakar): So I really would encourage people to even honour themselves. Not just their trauma, but to honour who they are as people.

0:37:44 - (Debbie Draybi): You know, a reflection for our listeners. Thinking about mental health, it's not a luxury for the wealthy or a sign of weakness. It's a tool for building stronger families and passing on health instead of hurt to the next generation. So thank you so much for all the incredible work you do and for having this conversation with us.

0:38:02 - (Claudia Chakar): Thank you so much for for having me. It's an absolute pleasure.

0:38:05 - (Eddie Reaiche): Thanks. Claudia.

0:38:12 - (Debbie Draybi): I hope this episode has helped you find sanctuary in this exciting journey of life. All of the resources we've mentioned in this episode are found in the podcast Notes. If you need some assistance with any of the topics discussed in today's episode, then please visit our website. Hi shl.org au if you have any thoughts, comments or ideas, please leave us a comment on Spotify. Alternatively, send us an email@adminhshl.org

0:38:43 - (Debbie Draybi): au you and your mental health matters to us, and we hope you get one step closer in finding sanctuary. Bye for now.