Redefining Masculinity: Empowerment Through Self-Giving - Peter Holmes

About the Guest:

Dr. Peter Holmes is a senior lecturer in theology at the University of Notre Dame. Recently Dr. Holmes published a book titled “Redeeming Masculinity,” which delves into understanding masculine identity from a theological perspective. To add to his list of credentials, he is now completing studies in counselling/ psychology.

Key Takeaways:

• The Evolution of Masculinity: Peter discusses how his personal and academic journeys shaped his understanding of masculinity, emphasising the shift from traditional markers of success to relational impact.
• Redefining Male Identity: Masculinity should be seen as a relationship-focused identity that prioritises giving and nurturing, contrary to societal pressures that encourage competition and self-centredness.
• Cultural Influences: There’s no single way to be a man; various cultures have their interpretations of masculinity. Understanding and extracting positives from cultural identities can lead to healthier self-perceptions.
• Importance of Communication: Effective communication in relationships can prevent common misunderstandings and strengthen bonds, especially if approached with a mindset of mutual respect and supporting growth.
• Seeking Support: Building a support network through mentorship and counselling can be crucial for personal development and redefining masculinity away from harmful stereotypes.

Notable Quotes:

“I am supposed to be strong… all of that strength is to help people, not to push myself up, to elevate, to push other people down.” – Dr Peter Holmes

“Real masculinity is self-giving and puts itself out there for the other.” – Dr Peter Holmes

“It’s never about the dishes.” – Eddie Reaiche

“You are amazing. You’re special. And you have something for the world.” – Dr Peter Holmes

“A strong man walks away. A weak man, who’s insecure in himself, has to fight more because he’s so insecure.” – Dr Peter Holmes

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Transcript

0:00:00 Debbie Draybi: Really excited today to have Eddie Reich co hosting and I’ll try and to behave and not pick on him too much because he hosted last time and he was very gentle.

0:00:10 Eddie Reaiche: Still getting over that.

0:00:11 Debbie Draybi: Okay, fair enough. And today we’ve got the privilege and Honour. We’ve got Dr. Peter Holmes joining us, who is a senior lecturer of theology. He’s actually Nat Majali’s lecturer, which is why Nat is not here, because she had stage fright and decided she needed to be on her best behavior. So she’s not on the microphone, but she’s in the room. Peter, it’s so lovely to have you join us. I know we’ve had a pre conversation last night and honestly, it’s just a privilege to have you here.

0:00:40 Debbie Draybi: I think one of the things that stood out for me and I thought we could talk about today, you know, your incredible work and understanding around masculinity. I know you’ve recently published a book around redeeming masculinity. And I was really curious in that conversation we had around, you know, your journey, your understanding of masculinity as an educator. You know so much about it, you’ve written about it, you’ve done a lot of research as we’re talking, I’m really curious about how does that translated for you into practice? What has it meant for you in your life as a man, as a father, as a professional?

0:01:15 Debbie Draybi: I mean, there’s a lot of layers there. But I’m just curious about how do you translate what you know, what you’ve learned about, into your daily life?

0:01:24 Peter Holmes: Good question. And that’s the one that is gonna be in the next book. Because this book is a theological book saying there’s lots of people who say Christians think this about masculinity. And I didn’t think they were right. But I went looking for the book that said what they do say about masculinity. And this is ended up having to write it. So this is the book about what Christians think about masculinity.

0:01:46 Peter Holmes: But the next one has to be how does it work? Like, what does it actually look like in the workplace, at home, et cetera? And the really honest answer is I didn’t have any idea. I grew up in a problematic home and my mum left my dad on my 21st birthday. So I had left home. But it’s still. There’s an impact there. It was coming a long time before that, even before that. My father had been quite ill when I was 12 and he hadn’t really been there. He hadn’t really been present in that time. So I knew he loved me, but he just wasn’t around. And you need that access.

0:02:22 Peter Holmes: And I, being the oldest boy, sort of tried to step up and make everything right for the family and didn’t know that I’d done that until I therapy much later down the track and realized, oh, gosh, I was trying to be dad, but I didn’t know. And then when my boy got to about 10 years old, I started to panic. I thought, I know how to play with him, but I don’t know how to be a dad. I don’t know how to be a. And I really realized I don’t even know how to be a man.

0:02:46 Peter Holmes: I was looking for what most people look for. You know, you want this marker in your career or this educational thing or that, and it just didn’t cut it. And I was realizing they were all very hollow. And almost everything they tell us about masculinity these days is wrong. How does it work? Well, it has to be that everything I’ve got is given for the good and the flourishing of those around me. I only really find myself when I give myself, if I keep it all to myself.

0:03:20 Peter Holmes: We were having a conversation outside before the selfishness of it, the kind of the inverted. You end up eating yourself inside and other people get used instead of you giving yourself to them and receiving from them. Because if you can’t give to them, there’s a flaw somewhere in there that means we can’t really receive from them because we don’t trust them. And then because I don’t trust them, I don’t want to give to them.

0:03:45 Peter Holmes: It’s a vicious circle, and we end up very much alone and we reach desperately for anything that’ll somehow justify our masculinity. I played a lot of sport as a young bloke. A lot of sport, because sport makes everything clear. There’s rules, and you know when you’ve succeeded and you know when you’ve failed. And there’s also rule different rules about how men engage. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but when men are on the footy field, you can run around, there’s hugs all around, Pat’s on the bum, and if someone did that to me at the photocopier, I’d be a little suspicious. Right?

0:04:19 Peter Holmes: There’s not the same level of camaraderie that the rules are different and you’re not allowed to admit emotions or, you know, we don’t do high fives at work when we succeed. I really missed that from sport. And I didn’t know what I was missing until I realized we’re really stunted in our emotional engagement as men between each other. But I used to go to these men’s groups where they’d sit around and talk about their emotions. And it drove me crazy because they were trying to be really sort of sensitive too quickly.

0:04:48 Peter Holmes: They didn’t actually engage the fierceness inside me. I had a lot of anger. From what I didn’t realize it was anger, but it was what I was missing. Like that I missed my dad, that I missed my friends. And there’s a lot of passion and direction. Like men strive for things. And if there’s no focus to that, all the emotional stuff in the world’s not going to help you if you don’t have a focus, if you don’t have something to strive for. But it wasn’t a mystery. I kept looking for a purpose, but actually every single person I came across was a purpose.

0:05:19 Peter Holmes: Strangely, it only occurred to me when I was trying to teach my son. At the time, we only had two children, but my daughter stood up for the first time, and my son pushed her over. I remember it distinctly, thinking, oh, no, what have I raised? A monster? And I said to him, God made you strong so that you could help her, not hurt her. And then later, God made you tall so that you could reach things for her, not dangle them out of her reach.

0:05:46 Peter Holmes: And then when she got a little older and she was helping him with his homework because she was smarter, God made you smart so you could help them, help him, not mock him for that. And I realized this is how simple it is. I am supposed to be strong. I am supposed to develop myself as a man. But all of that strength is to help people, not to push myself up, to elevate, to push other people down. And if I get that, almost everything else clicks into place.

0:06:13 Peter Holmes: I don’t think you have to be terribly religious to come to that, but it helps.

0:06:17 Debbie Draybi: I think it’s incredible what you’re saying in terms of being able to understand masculinity, really, it’s defined in terms of how you relate to people, how you connect to them, how you use your strengths and your power in a way, in a positive way, to connect to them and to support them, rather than internalizing it and making it about you.

0:06:40 Peter Holmes: Yeah, and there is definitely. I mean, that could be said of anyone, male or female. Anyone. Right. But there’s things that are specific to men without him getting too religious about it. John Paul II made he Was Pope John Paul II was a couple of popes ago, made the point that whatever we say about women, all the other stuff, aside from the first moment, they’re aware of their own sexuality, they know that a baby starts here, inside, and it changes their perspective on the whole world because life begins here. And it’s a precious, nurtured thing. And they think about individuals from that nurturing perspective.

0:07:15 Peter Holmes: Now, it manifests itself in all kinds of ways. And some people are this way or that way. One good thing John Paul II never did was make a list of what it means to be a woman, which is absolutely correct. There’s no one way. But he said of men, conversely, we have the same relationship, except that we’re always outside of the pregnancy, outside. And we know this from the very first moment that we become aware of how this works.

0:07:41 Peter Holmes: We’re outside of that, and we’re a little bit confused about what that means to be outside. But lots and lots. I mean, you guys probably know better than I, but lots and lots of our studies in psychology show us that the father figure is often the one calling the child out of the comfort of the mother’s arms and the womb and the home, out to the challenges of the world. He’s provoking them to get out there and be more involved with the world and test their wings. And of course, he’s there to support them and pick them back up and forgive them and love them.

0:08:11 Peter Holmes: But he’s kind of the one outside calling them out. And that’s kind of the model of fatherhood, which we can see at work in some psychology, but also very much when we’re talking about God the Father, he’s outside of creation. If you’re going to believe in a creator God, he’s outside, but he’s calling us to come outside. He’s calling us out of this sort of mundane place, out to be greater and better.

0:08:36 Peter Holmes: If I can get a little bit into my stuff that I teach the Hebrew people, well before Christ, like 2000 years before Christ, were talking about fatherhood. The primary role was to make their children great. Not to make them obey, not to make them achieve various things, but to make them great in themselves, that they were good people. And I think you kind of know when you’ve done something half decent with your kids, when they treat someone else decently.

0:09:04 Peter Holmes: People say you’re a credit to your parents. They don’t mean you did everything they said. They mean you acted like a decent person. They must have done something right.

0:09:13 Eddie Reaiche: I get this a lot with a Lot of my clients, when I’m seeing a lot of men, and a lot of them are a little disillusioned because of society nowadays and what’s the role that’s placed on them, not what they believe their role is, but what it’s dictated.

0:09:29 Peter Holmes: Yes.

0:09:31 Eddie Reaiche: So I’m seeing a lot more disillusioned men, particularly in men’s group, where they sit around and they go, how are we supposed to navigate this society? How are we supposed to teach our kids values when our values, and this is from a cultural perspective, our values dictate this.

0:09:48 Peter Holmes: Yeah.

0:09:49 Eddie Reaiche: Societal values are the opposite. So how do we work with that?

0:09:53 Peter Holmes: And not just the values of society, the goals that they set. Are you successful enough? Now? In some ways, part of the problem is that we have the most research, the most money that’s put into research of anything, including all medical research and war. The most money that’s spent is research into advertising. And advertising’s goal is to sell you something. Now they could just tell you, we’ve got this, it’s cost this much. But they don’t because they know it’s more effective to make you feel like you’re nothing without their product.

0:10:25 Peter Holmes: And so almost every advertisement is screaming at you. You’re not young enough, you’re not sexy enough, you’re not shiny enough. And without that, you’re nothing. And so it’s a constant peppering away at our self confidence and our ego and our self worth because they know that if we get put down, we have to buy. And then this originates. Back in the Industrial revolution, men used to be judged by how well they raised their family, how well they cared for their family, and how good their relationships were with their family. And the family stayed in the family business, so to speak, or the farm.

0:11:01 Peter Holmes: The industrialists had to get men happily away from their family to work for them. And so they tried to convince them that their identity was more in how much they earned outside in their career and what they were respected outside in their career. And you also see it in wars. They say, you’re a real man if you’re a soldier kind of thing. The masculinity thing has been a manipulative tool used by governments and industries to try and convince men, your family is not as important as this other cause, get out there and do that thing.

0:11:32 Peter Holmes: And it stayed that way. I was talking to someone recently about economics because this is very much related. And he said, we can’t afford, because I was saying, get rid of all debt. And he was saying, we can’t afford to do that, because in this modern society, almost nobody would work if they didn’t have a debt. And they won’t ever just totally reduce debt because most people, they need the debt to make us work hard in these things we don’t want to do and drag us away from our family. We don’t want to do them. It’s not natural, but we have to because we’ve got so much debt weighing us down.

0:12:12 Peter Holmes: Every talk I give on masculinity, people come up and say, that’s great. How am I going to do this and pay the mortgage? How is it possible? And so I think that one of the greatest injustices that’s done to us, both men and women, is that they make us slave, literally slave for a goal which isn’t actually something we’re benefiting from, really. They give us little tidbits along the way, but it’s not useful for us.

0:12:39 Eddie Reaiche: Pete, in your research and studying masculinity, did you notice any variations between cultures?

0:12:46 Peter Holmes: There’s a lot of variations between cultures. It would be interesting to ask the question, were there any significant variations? One thing John Paul II did really well was recognized. There’s no one way to be a man. And so different cultures have different markers, and that’s a good thing. To some extent. What we are good at is seeing what’s good about our cultures, and we push that really hard. What we’re bad at is recognizing the downfall of our culture and working on how to get better at that without rejecting the culture completely. So what tends to happen is that someone will stick with their own culture because it’s where they grew up and they kind of identify with it until something happens that causes them to break in some way. Like, they go, no, I can’t deal with this anymore.

0:13:33 Peter Holmes: And what tends to happen is that they then throw the baby out with the bathwater and walk away. I’m sure I have an outsider’s perspective, but all of the Lebanese families I’ve come across in Sydney, it’s a wonderful witness how close the families are and how involved they are. But they come to me asking for an extension and say, oh, dad wants me to do X and Mum wants me to. And it’s for them, it’s a real negative.

0:13:56 Peter Holmes: But I’m seeing it going, I wish my dad was involved. I wish there was these things. So we tend to look, we feel the negatives, but we put up with them as long as everything’s working out. But as soon as it gets too far, people break. And then they throw everything out. It’s really hard because we tend to identify my belonging with all the trappings of that culture. It takes a very, very self confident, a very self possessed person to say, I value this, but only so far, no further on this. So here’s my point where I can’t.

0:14:31 Peter Holmes: You have to be really, really confident in yourself. And probably that comes from knowing that your parents love you no matter what and being so secure in that that you could say that because I came from, like, I didn’t have any of that affirmation as a kid. Anyone tells me I’m not fitting the cultural thing, I’m immediately kind of twitching and trying to fix things.

0:14:51 Eddie Reaiche: So, yeah, I’ve got another question that I’m dying to ask. Every decade there’s a buzzword that comes up and everyone uses it. People were talking about how everything’s surreal and then all of a sudden everyone throws surreal into ascendance. And then in the previous 10 years, it was about everyone’s bipolar and everyone becomes bipolar or schizo. The new buzzword I’m hearing now is narcissists, right?

0:15:19 Eddie Reaiche: So I wonder if you’ve done any work about narcissism, because just about every woman who comes into my clinic now says her husband is a narcissist.

0:15:27 Peter Holmes: Well, I mean, narcissism, you know much better than I do, is a diagnosis which is very technical and there’s a threshold that they have to get.

0:15:36 Eddie Reaiche: So we talk about traits, we don’t say they’re narcissists because women have narcissistic traits as much as men.

0:15:42 Peter Holmes: I would say that in terms of some of the things, when you read a list on some silly Internet site that gives you a list of things, you could pick out any number of those and find, if you’re honest in yourself, a certain amount. Because what they’re describing, describing as selfishness, narcissism is a pathological incapacity to think outside of that kind of model personality. But most of us are selfish if we’re not working on it.

0:16:10 Peter Holmes: So I’m much more likely to care about my body than someone else’s body because I’m feeling it right? Most of us are a little bit selfish. I think you’re right, it’s a buzzword. But what they’re identifying, and I think perhaps on the other side of this is positive, they’re identifying that selfishness harms relationships. And if we could say, okay, that is a selfish thing, let’s talk about how that affects the relationship. And let’s be honest about how all of our selfishness comes into play here.

0:16:41 Peter Holmes: The danger of the diagnosis, so to speak, especially when it’s done with Dr. Google, is that we write off the other person as irredeemable and that we are the good guys and they’re the bad guys. And it forgives me for any part that I might have in this problem that’s quite dangerous. One of the other buzzwords is toxic masculinity. Gets thrown around a bit.

0:17:04 Debbie Draybi: That’s what I thought you were going to ask about.

0:17:05 Peter Holmes: The one when I was growing up was patriarchy. Patriarchy is there. It’s true some men are domineering and they’ve used their authority and positions of privilege to kind of force other people to follow their plan for life. And we say that’s wrong. It’s, it’s an irresponsible use. But the answer isn’t to get rid of fathers. The answer is to get better fathers. Fathers who lift people up rather than push them down or push them in a particular way.

0:17:34 Peter Holmes: Toxic masculinity. It’s absolutely true. Men are treating women well, more worse, I would say. And the stats show there’s much more violence and much more sexual assault. And part of that’s the porn culture. But the toxic part, they’re right about that. But what they’re wrong about is calling masculinity toxic. There are toxic men, but real masculinity is self giving and puts itself out there for the other.

0:17:57 Peter Holmes: And if we were genuinely for the other people, that, that wouldn’t be a problem.

0:18:02 Debbie Draybi: Yeah, I think it’s a really big issue we’ve been grappling with as a community on this podcast around. Sometimes we look for labels to define things and as you said, we stick to them. And that’s all we see and that’s all we understand about the person. And there could be some incredible positive things that we’re ignoring because it doesn’t fit that label. And it can be quite dangerous and toxic in itself. Really.

0:18:25 Peter Holmes: Yeah. One of the problems with life is that people are complicated and you have to work hard to understand them, love them. And usually there’s good and there’s bad. And to be honest, it’s much easier when they’re the bad guys or they’re completely the good guys and you don’t have to think about it and you don’t have to deal with it. It’s so exhausting to have to deal with so much rubbish and it’s just easier to go, I can’t deal with this, you’re just bad in some respect. We’re exhausted.

0:18:54 Peter Holmes: And part of that I think is that we’re so bombarded by the doom scrolling, the emotional hits again, the advertising catching us with all the strong emotions, we haven’t got enough left in our tank to deal with real people.

0:19:06 Eddie Reaiche: That’s right.

0:19:07 Peter Holmes: And so we just kind of, we like to simplify it.

0:19:11 Debbie Draybi: So Peter, like from what I’m hearing from you is that your understanding of masculinity has evolved, you know, as you’ve grown, as you’ve developed, but also through your research. How has it impacted on your relationships? You know, that understanding that you now have that’s so grounded in you as the giver and the carer really like it’s a beautiful understanding. But how has it changed your relationships?

0:19:35 Peter Holmes: Well, I started out very young, young married guy and as a Protestant there was a movement called True Love Waits which is all about you gotta hold off till you’re married. But the way they present it, at least the way I was taught it was more like you’ve gotta white knuckle it until you’re married. And then when you get married, woo hoo, it’s all on. But nothing could be further than the truth. If you’re sensitive to your spouse, if you care about them, there’s always yes and nos.

0:20:02 Peter Holmes: In some ways it’s more difficult being married in terms of self control. Lots of young men come and say, oh, I don’t know about if I can be celibate, I can’t control myself. I say, well don’t get married then. Because when I was single the equation was really simple every day. But when I’m married, I’m lying next to the most beautiful woman in the world. We’re allowed to. But I still have to take her welfare and her wish and everything into account.

0:20:28 Peter Holmes: I need to be in control of myself, not suppressing but properly orienting myself to her. And when I was first married, I wasn’t very good at that. I’m a young bloke, the hormones are going hard. She had lots on her plate, she’d moved interstate, she was unemployed. There was all kinds of trauma going on with her. And I went looking for reasons because I was in Bible study at then went looking for where in the Bible. It tells her that she should shape up.

0:20:58 Peter Holmes: And the funny thing about almost everyone who reflects on these things is that’s not, that’s not the way you improve the relationship. Telling someone else that they need to shape up is never going to be good. Everything in The Bible says that I had to be sacrificial in my love for her. The model of bridegrooms in the scriptures is Christ and the bride is his church. And the first thing I thought when I read that was damn Christ didn’t get much out of his church.

0:21:30 Peter Holmes: Nothing much came to him. Well, that’s no good. What’s the next example we can follow? Well, St. Joseph probably he didn’t get much out of that either. All of these husbands in the scriptures were people who gave everything and received nothing. I remember being quite resentful about that and thinking this isn’t fair. Men come to me to talk about things and they almost always say we’re not on the same page in terms of intimacy.

0:21:58 Peter Holmes: But I know I can’t impose myself. That’s wrong. Not everyone says that, but most do. But how do I help her to see my needs involved and how do I see hers? That’s a very difficult question because it requires a lot of communication, it requires a lot of honesty with the person and also vulnerability to put your needs out there. Because if I present my needs to my spouse, I’m taking a risk if I’m genuinely presenting them. Not demanding, but presenting them and saying here’s where you make me happy.

0:22:32 Peter Holmes: Maybe she won’t come to the party. And quite often our estimation of what’s needed is not the same as what is actually needed. That’s part of the growth of being a man. And in almost all cases that’s also what you learn when you have children is they make endless demands of you. They are just one long demand, but they drag you kicking and screaming into adulthood. I would love to be lazy, especially on a Saturday morning, but my children have never let me be. They jump on my bed and you promise to go to the park.

0:23:06 Peter Holmes: So I’m dragged kicking and screaming into mature self giving love. I didn’t want to be at all fit or I’ve never liked exercising. You put a ball in front of me, I’ll chase it for hours. But exercise I don’t like. But when my kids were learning to ride a bike, I ran behind the bike with my hand on the seat for five hours one Saturday with all my kids. Not because I wanted to or I have some sort of virtue, but because they drag you into that kind of self giving love.

0:23:32 Peter Holmes: And when you think about it, we really have to see our spouses and other people that way that they’re inviting us, provoking us into the space of being a grownup, being a self giving person. We Tend to think of people as being demanding and got to do this now, and when can I have some time for myself? But kids get away with it because they’re so cute. I always think cuteness is self defense, especially at 2am when they’ve woken you up for the third time that night, but they drag you into it and you’ve got no defenses against that.

0:24:06 Peter Holmes: Spouses are more difficult to love than children, I think, because you’re always thinking of them as, oh, what do I get out of this? And when she tells me something she needs, she’s inviting me into that space.

0:24:18 Eddie Reaiche: It’s a nice segue when you talk about that in relationships. I think a lot of the listeners are looking at some of the challenges they have in relationships. If they can take that as a different perspective than what they’ve had before, it’s something that they can learn from. Because this whole invitation thing, similar to the imago therapy, where you need to be invited into crossing over a bridge or invited to a conversation rather than just imposing a conversation on someone because they’re not ready.

0:24:50 Eddie Reaiche: So these sort of things are really important for a lot of our listeners to, to take and probably improve their relationship because they’re fundamental issues. They’re the simplest issues to take, but it’s just something they have to learn as they go along.

0:25:05 Peter Holmes: The opportunity thing is really big. Someone once put it to me this way, if your wife’s loving you and you love her back, that’s just what everyone does. But if something goes wrong and she’s not loving you and then you love her, you’ve proved your love is genuine. It’s an opportunity to prove yourself. Like to go, all right, here I go. This is not about quid pro quo. I can actually get in there and show I’m not a conditional lover.

0:25:32 Peter Holmes: I love all the time. I never thought of it that way. And if, especially with young men, if you put a challenge to them like that, say, well, this is a challenge, this is going to be hard. So are you up for it? Almost every young man that I’ve spoken to is the chest comes out and they’ll have a go. One of the things, though, I think young men should consider at least some communications skills workshops or something like that, if not counseling. Because one of the models that I got in my head very early on, which helped, was that I have internal monologue. So what goes on in my head, and then I have an encoding box where I code up my communication.

0:26:09 Peter Holmes: It goes across to her, she decodes it and it goes into her mind. And then she encodes her response. So she says to me, the dishes aren’t done. And it comes across to me and I go, she’s accusing me of not doing the dishes. I put it into my head, wait, that’s not fair. I haven’t been home all day. She’s saying, that’s not what I meant. I meant, I’m really struggling with dishes, with the whole of the housework, and I’m feeling really. And you’re the first adult I’ve seen. I just want to tell you. I just want you to listen to me.

0:26:40 Peter Holmes: And I’m saying, yeah, but you accused me. So. So there’s this whole cycle of round and round, and we don’t really communicate that well. And that becomes a cycle where we’ve gone from being ready to believe the best about our spouse and what they think about us to very quickly becomes we’re suspicious and defensive. And then anything they say comes in suspiciously and defensively, and we’re interpreting it differently.

0:27:04 Peter Holmes: I wish someone had helped me think, how is she hearing this? And then the whole practice of repeating back, can I just. I just want to make sure I’ve heard what you said. Did you say this until she’s happy that I’ve expressed that the way I should? It changes the discussion. We still disagree every day, but we at least know what we’re actually disagreeing about and we can come to a solution.

0:27:31 Eddie Reaiche: You know, Pete, it’s really funny you saying that, because in my couple therapy, I actually have this subject matter called it’s never about the dishes. Because it happens so often. I say, well, what did you argue about? And then you’d say, the dishes. I don’t think it’s about that. Yeah, it’s about the dishes. Okay, what else is happening in your life? Tell me what else is happening. But it’s never about the dishes.

0:27:56 Eddie Reaiche: And it’s so common where it comes up about something so trivial, like a rip and the carpet or a bit of soiled linen or. It’s never about that. There’s always something deeper. So I always started with, guys, today we’re going to talk about, it’s never about the dishes. It’s so funny when you use that example and just brought it home.

0:28:18 Peter Holmes: Also, the needs thing. Like, I remember we did a survey on needs. Basically, it was the five ways in which we receive love the most, like, what really mattered to us. And there was 10 to choose from in this silly list. And I chose five. And I thought, pretty sure that she’s got at least four of them. She chose five, and they were completely opposite fives. And I said, really, really, you don’t care about these things. And one of mine is recreational companionship. So I love to play with other people, like get involved in something. She said, oh, it’s nice, but I don’t care. It’s like a massage. It’s nice when it happens, but I don’t care.

0:28:50 Peter Holmes: I don’t need it every. All the time. But I had invested a huge amount of effort into what I thought were her needs, but were actually mine. And I just wish I’d had some sort of way to sit down. And that’s very easily facilitated by couples therapists. Sit down and actually share what really matters to me. But if I can say something to ladies listening. The number one way a guy can be taught how to do something is not nag him, compliment him when he gets it right.

0:29:18 Peter Holmes: My wife once, 10 years ago, said to me, I love when you hang the. You always hang the towels perfectly straight. And those towels have been straight ever since. And I can’t help it. It’s pathological. Every time I come out of the bathroom, but the dishes still not done.

0:29:37 Eddie Reaiche: It’s not about the dishes.

0:29:39 Debbie Draybi: They’re worried about the dishes. I think that’s a really powerful message, Peter, as you’re talking, like, I hear this desperation of wishing someone had taught you that. And I think it’s such a powerful message for our listeners that don’t expect yourself to know everything. There’s things we have to unlearn, particularly from our early childhood. And thank you so much for sharing that. Because we don’t always have good role models. Our parents did what they knew and.

0:30:06 Peter Holmes: Their parents didn’t teach them often. And so they’re passing, especially because of the war situation that lots of people were damaged. So we’re getting sort of the flow on effect. But I would say be proactive. I have always. I’m a bit kind of cheeky like this, but I’ve always. If I’ve seen anyone who’s an older bloke that seemed like they knew what they’re talking about, I hunted them down and said, can I have a coffee with you? Can we have dinner? Will you and your wife come to dinner? And just peppered them with questions.

0:30:31 Debbie Draybi: Yeah.

0:30:31 Peter Holmes: And some of those turned into strong friendships. But most of them, I just had that one time to talk to them. Don’t sit back and wait and say, oh, it’s so bad. I didn’t have it in my birth family. There’s plenty of people out there in the community who can help and to.

0:30:45 Debbie Draybi: Go out and seek, like you’ve mentioned counseling or therapy. But it sounds like other examples of seeking role models that people you curious about, they look like they’ve got it right. And being able to talk to them and ask them questions and connect with them. Cause we’re not meant to do this on our own. We’re not meant to know all this on our own.

0:31:04 Peter Holmes: Yeah, that’s something that’s really sick about our Western culture, is that we’re in these four walls in our homes and we feel ashamed to admit to anyone that anything’s wrong, as if anyone gets it right. Honestly, in past, you had families living with you and everything, and that was a pain in other ways, but everyone was chipping in, everyone was helping out. And if you weren’t doing the good thing, someone would kick you out the butt. And if you were struggling, someone would help you out.

0:31:31 Debbie Draybi: Yeah, I think that’s really powerful message. Looking for connections and not perpetuating that alienation and trying to figure it out on your own. Because it can get even more alienating, really, and isolating. And the problem becomes bigger when you’re on your own. And that’s been a huge motivator for us with this podcast, to break the silence, really, and to talk about things that are often unspoken.

0:31:55 Peter Holmes: I couldn’t finish a thing like this without talking to young men about egos and fighting. It takes a strong man to walk away. When you’re not actually fighting for anything. You should stand up for what’s good, true and beautiful. You should. But you’re not fighting for you or your ego. You’re fighting for what’s good, true and beautiful. And as soon as it’s possible, a strong man walks away. A weak man who’s insecure in himself has to fight more because he’s so insecure he has to thrash around to try and justify himself. If you’re strong in yourself, if you know you’re loved by your spouse or your friends, if you’re secure in who you are, you don’t need to fight.

0:32:36 Peter Holmes: You only need to defend what’s good and walk away. And it’s so much so liberating to not have to thrash for everything every single time, that you can just be you and be comfortable and other people can be safe around you because they know you’ll step up if it’s needed, but it won’t be about your ego.

0:32:55 Eddie Reaiche: Excellent. It’s a great idea.

0:32:57 Debbie Draybi: Yes. Fighting for a cause, walking away when there’s no meaning to the conflict.

0:33:02 Peter Holmes: Yep.

0:33:03 Eddie Reaiche: Would you take me back to my adolescent years? It’s very shameful.

0:33:08 Debbie Draybi: It’s like Eddie’s got some regret there.

0:33:12 Eddie Reaiche: Shame lessons.

0:33:13 Peter Holmes: He had some lessons.

0:33:15 Debbie Draybi: Yeah. And I think that’s just a powerful message, too, in terms of recognising our lived experiences, being able to have that awareness, because sometimes shame can get in the way. We don’t wanna talk about what we missed out on or what we lacked. You know, your courage and your vulnerability to talk about your relationship with your dad. It’s common. A lot of us didn’t have those secure, reliable parents there.

0:33:38 Peter Holmes: For us, the trouble is, the very confidence you need to talk about these things often comes from having that good relationship with dad. So if you don’t have that confidence, then seek it out. Seek out someone who’s. Well, let’s be honest, someone who’s paid to listen, that’s pretty safe to start with, and then work from there into some other relationships which actually will work on that. And the vulnerability thing is important, but don’t rush it.

0:34:05 Peter Holmes: Be gentle with yourself. Be forgiving of yourself. Almost all anxiety is borrowing pain from the past or pain from the future. Live in the moment. Be you now, and let someone help you move towards the security that you can love from a position of knowing who you are.

0:34:22 Debbie Draybi: Peter, it’s been wonderful connecting with you. Thank you for your wisdom, for your openness. As we wrap up, I was wondering if there’s any parting messages that you’d like to leave for our listeners. I know you’ve given us so much already, but anything that you think will be really important and wish you had heard when you were struggling with, you know, particularly in your younger years.

0:34:41 Peter Holmes: I wish that I knew. I mean, we say it a lot, but I wish I knew it was all about relationships, that no one ever lies on their deathbed wishing they’d worked harder or got that extra degree or something. It’s how you treated people and how you left people in. Did you make their life better? Did you lift them to be better people? I wish someone had told me that. And I hope that if anyone’s listening to this, you should know. You are amazing.

0:35:12 Peter Holmes: You’re special. Not just special, you’re amazing. And you have something for the world. Nobody knows what it is because it’s yours. Figure it out and have some fun with it.

0:35:25 Eddie Reaiche: I just wish I had this podcast 30 years ago.

0:35:28 Debbie Draybi: Well, thank you. It’s. And I think it’s a really powerful message, you know, a really strong theme that I keep hearing from the both of you is you don’t have to figure this out on your own. And being able to connect, whether it’s with a professional or seeking other people that you identify with that are like minded and having conversations about this and opening it up.

0:35:50 Peter Holmes: Yeah.

0:35:51 Eddie Reaiche: And it’s never about the dishes.

0:35:52 Debbie Draybi: It’s never about the dishes. It’s always about the dishes. Well, thank you.

0:35:58 Peter Holmes: A pleasure to be here.

0:36:00 Debbie Draybi: Thank you.