Beyond Perinatal Loss: Finding Hope and Healing - Pamela Chedid

Key Takeaways:

• The Power of Faith: Pamela Chedid emphasizes how her faith in Christ helped her carry the burden of grief after the loss of her child.
• Writing as Therapy: Through writing, Pamela found solace and a means to process her emotions, leading to the creation of her poetry book.
• Honor and Memory: Remembering and honoring lost loved ones through personal rituals and sharing stories aid in the healing journey.
• Support Networks: A strong, caring network of family, friends, and professionals is crucial during times of loss and grief.
• Grief is Personal and Complex: Pamela shares her experience of handling grief as an ongoing process, not confined to a specific timeline or method.

Notable Quotes:

1. "Everybody experiences something in their life that profoundly changes them. And for me, it was the stillbirth."
2. "I actually wanted to write her a poem when I first started reading my poetry. And believe it or not, it was one of the last ones I wrote."
3. "It was the most terrible day ever, but I got through it. Everybody who saw me after, even in the days after and the day of the funeral, commented on how calm I seemed. I mean, of course I was crying and I was heartbroken, deeply heartbroken."
4. "The one thing that I would advise them to do is to mention their name, remember the name of the child, and don't brush it under the carpet. Don't try and, you know, push it away. We actually want to talk about it."
5. "If you have a friend who has had any kind of pregnancy loss, even if they didn't have a stillborn and they had a miscarriage, remember that. Honor that. Because it's just food for the soul really when you, when you receive a message like that, you think, oh, you know, her memory lives on."

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Transcript

0:00:00 - (Debbie Draybi): Warning. This episode contains confronting topics and issues. If you need help, please contact Beyond Blue. For more information and resources, please Visit our website HSHL.orgau welcome to finding Sanctuary. Our shared conversations into how we think and feel and how we find peace and comfort in daily life. We get together with experts to chat about all things mental health, getting insights and understanding on the struggles of life.

0:00:37 - (Debbie Draybi): Welcome back. I've got our co host Eddie Reich, who's back from all his travels. So welcome back, Eddie.

0:00:43 - (Eddie Reaiche): Hello everyone.

0:00:43 - (Debbie Draybi): And we have a very special guest with us today, Pamela Shadid, who's an author who's recently published a book of poems called Letters to Heaven. And welcome.

0:00:54 - (Pam Chedid): Pam, thank you. Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.

0:00:57 - (Debbie Draybi): Oh, it's really great to have you here. So today we thought we'd have a conversation with you around your journey, with your writing and, you know, what's motivated you. A big theme in our podcast is being able to share our stories, particularly the hard ones. And I know that in our conversations in the lead up, you had some significant loss in your life and I wondered if you don't mind sharing with us around what led you to your writing and a bit about your loss and your grief.

0:01:25 - (Pam Chedid): Well, it started in 2010 and I was fortunate enough to be pregnant with that little girl. Her name was Bernadette. And it was a bit of an unusual pregnancy, to be honest. I kind of had a gut instinct that something was wrong the whole way through. So much so that I kept going back to the doctors and asking, you know, to listen to the heartbeat. And I guess it was mother's instinct. And I sort of made it about eight months in before we realised that something was significantly wrong.

0:01:57 - (Pam Chedid): Yeah. So she was stillborn on the 23rd of April, 2010. And I realized pretty soon into it that, you know, it was a very big cross to carry. And in fact, I always been a woman of faith and I just surrendered myself to Christ and I said to him, I can't carry this cross. Actually, I can't even carry it at all. You'll have to carry it for me and I'll have to walk next to you. That's what he did. And I just pretty much said, you know, you talk for me, you breathe for me, you walk for me, you labour for me. Because I knew I'd have to give birth.

0:02:33 - (Pam Chedid): Yeah, I relied completely on Christ. And then after my experience, I started to think about how I could deal with my grief. That led me to write a little book about her and I Called that book Womb of Hope actually, because I knew that in spite of all that tragedy, in the midst of all that sadness, Christ had shown me that love existed and still exists. And there was some good to come of that. So I started writing her story.

0:03:00 - (Pam Chedid): And I had a few graces along the way too, because Christ had illuminated my mind in that. He showed me, you know, pretty quickly that this was going to be something that I could build on in a positive way. It wasn't always going to be grief and about her, it was going to be something that I could use as a motivator to help others along the way and as an example for my children as well, my girls. It just made me more empathetic as a person.

0:03:33 - (Pam Chedid): I wrote that book and I decided after I wrote it that I didn't actually want to publish it. So I just kept it and I thought, that's my love letter to her. And it helped me to shift through my emotions, my grief. And then pretty much I realised that writing was a very, very helpful tool for me. Going through Covid in 2020, I started thinking about my writing again and I felt a bit lost and a bit frightened again, like I did with the stillbirth.

0:04:06 - (Pam Chedid): And I decided to write letters to Christ and that's where I am today. It's taken me five years to do that. I'm here now, just published the book. I've written over 40 love letters to him. So that's how I got here.

0:04:19 - (Debbie Draybi): And so you've written two books, essentially, one that you decided not to publish. What led you to the decision to publish? What was different the second time around, do you think?

0:04:30 - (Pam Chedid): Oh, I think Bernadette's story is a very personal story. I started to think about, like I said to you, that Christ had illuminated my mind and I was so blessed. He'd given me so many graces that he showed me that I could use my writing for more than just grief. There were so many other things I could use it for. To help other people along their life's journey, you know, even with their faith. You know, sometimes people going through illness or. I mean, everybody experiences something in their life that profoundly changes them. And for me it was distilledbirth.

0:05:03 - (Pam Chedid): And I had two choices. I could have wallowed in self despair or I could have, which is what I did, just leant on Christ and asked him because, I mean, the only way I could get through that delivery was by God's grace. I was completely shattered. It was the most terrible day ever, but I got through it. And actually, everybody. Everybody who saw me after, even in the days after and the day of the funeral, commented on how calm I seemed. I mean, of course I was crying and I was heartbroken, deeply heartbroken.

0:05:41 - (Pam Chedid): But I was also very accepting of it. And that's because, as I said, I was given the grace to know that I was going to do something bigger and better with wasn't going to be this horrible, tragic end. There was going to be love and something positive that was going to come from it.

0:06:04 - (Eddie Reaiche): Pam, I think this is nothing short of heroic to be able to come here and talk about something so tragic in your life. And I got to tell you how much I appreciate this. I think we all appreciate your time here. I want to ask you a little bit about the support network around you when all this happened, because grief is such a personal thing, but it's nice to be able to get energy or strength from God.

0:06:31 - (Eddie Reaiche): But I don't think you can do that without a good support network. What was your support network like?

0:06:36 - (Pam Chedid): So my husband was amazing. My children, my younger girls, they broke my heart, too. So that was the reason why I went on to have another baby after. Because just to let everybody know, I had terrible pregnancies with all my pregnancies. And I sort of thought, well, there's my physical health, which I can arm myself with a great team of doctors, and then there's my mental health. And mental health took precedent over the physical health because I thought, you know, Christ can help me with the physical stuff and he can help me with the mental stuff too, and so can my support network. But ultimately, it was that headspace that I wanted just to have clear.

0:07:16 - (Pam Chedid): And as far as my support network goes, I also had amazing group of relatives, family and relatives that would just do simple things like make meals for me and just help me with the funeral arrangements. To be honest, I didn't really have much to do with that because I think everybody wanted to simplify things for me. They knew that I had the upcoming, because when I went in, I did an ultrasound. They told me there was no heartbeat. At eight months, I knew that I'd pretty much be induced very soon.

0:07:46 - (Pam Chedid): And that was something I had to go through. And I think everyone was mindful of that. Pam had to do this on her own, no matter what. Even my husband holding my hand and being there with me. Ultimately, it was me that had to deliver the baby. I also had great support from clergy, had some amazing priests who helped me and tried to just support me and just reassure me that everything was going to be okay.

0:08:12 - (Pam Chedid): There were also some very bad experiences that I had from people which were nothing short of heartbreaking. So if I'm talking about prior to the birth, everyone was great. But after the birth, I kind of felt people wanted it to disappear, and she was not disappearing. And it's 15 years this April, and I'll never stop talking about her. Because it was more than just a stillbirth. You just lose your child on that day. You know, it's.

0:08:43 - (Pam Chedid): You lose a whole lifetime of memories or a whole lifetime of experiences that you would have had for a whole lot of mother's days that are never going to be the same. Whole lot of birthdays, a whole lot of anniversaries. So it's not just that day. And everybody kind of thought, oh, it's easier for Pamela if we just block it out and not mention it. But, you know, I didn't have one memory. The only memory I had of her was the day of the birth.

0:09:12 - (Pam Chedid): So my whole experience was within dressing her and, you know, was a very, very rushed thing for me. And, you know, I tried to recall her face every now and again. I can still remember it. But, you know, thank goodness my midwife was amazing, gave me a photograph. So every now and again, I go back and have a look at the photo, and that's something special for me to have. But other than that, I didn't really have anything concrete.

0:09:39 - (Pam Chedid): You know, it was just came, it was just silence, and then it was gone, you know. And for me, it was heartbreaking to have people say things like, oh, you know, you'll have another one, or it wasn't meant to be, or don't say anything like that. It's best just to say, I'm sorry, and if you need me, I'm here. And I think that goes with anything, any kind of loss. I mean, everybody knows somebody who's lost somebody or who's sort of been affected by grief. And grief is that horrible thing that just sneaks up on you. I mean, I might be in the car and I'm thinking, I'm fine. And then a song will come on, or a smell. Cause she had this sweet smell.

0:10:18 - (Pam Chedid): I was also blessed that the midwife had given me a blanket that I was able to wrap her in. And would you believe it, 15 years later, it's still the same smell. So it's in a special place. And every now and again, I go back and I just smell it. And I think, that's my memory, you know, so I'm very grateful for those little things. But it was very hard not to have anything concrete to hold on to. You know, I didn't even hear a cry.

0:10:41 - (Pam Chedid): I didn't get to hold her, you know, it was very hard.

0:10:46 - (Eddie Reaiche): Yeah, it must have been so tough when they gave you the news.

0:10:51 - (Pam Chedid): I couldn't breathe.

0:10:52 - (Eddie Reaiche): And then you had to give everyone else a news.

0:10:54 - (Pam Chedid): It was so hard. So in that instant, that instant when I was told was earth shattering, my whole world started to spin. I actually immediately started to hyperventilate. It was just so intense. And actually the other day I asked my husband, because I couldn't even remember. Like, I feel like your body, your mind tries to block things out. And I said, were you there? When I was told? He said no. So I was actually by myself with the doctor.

0:11:24 - (Pam Chedid): I had a feeling because when he was doing the ultrasound, he had a very nervous shake in his leg and he was very quiet. And I was just, what has happened? You know? And then when he said, I'm sorry, she's passed away. There is no heartbeat, my whole world just collapsed. I really did accept that this was. This was my. This was my cross to carry.

0:11:52 - (Debbie Draybi): I have a question for you around. If another woman out there listening is going through this experience or, you know, members of our community that are trying to support someone through this, what would be the one thing that you would advise them and encourage them to do?

0:12:09 - (Pam Chedid): The one thing that I would advise them to do is to mention their name, remember the name of the child and don't brush it under the carpet. Don't try and, you know, push it away. We actually want to talk about it. We actually want someone to. Because when you think about grief, there's a big paradox in grief, in that when you're living it, you want it to go, but at the same time, you need that. You need that journey for healing and you actually embrace it.

0:12:40 - (Pam Chedid): So I actually embraced it and I thought, this is justified. I should be feeling like this. This is my child. This is, you know, my daughter who I've lost. I should be feeling so completely devastated. So there's that paradox in grief and that you can't rush it either. I remember crying to Christ, saying, take it away, take it away. And then I realized, no, he's not going to take it away. He's going to show you how to carry it, which he did.

0:13:13 - (Pam Chedid): But the one thing would be remembering their name, remembering their birthday. And just around the time of the experience, something practical, like, I wanted to give something from each one of us in our family. For Bernadette. And I thought, well, I'm never going to have a birthday party for her. I'm never going to have a Holy Communion. I'm never going to be able to give her a piece of gold. I'm never going to keep her. Give her a blanket just to keep her warm.

0:13:40 - (Pam Chedid): So I called on my support network, I remember calling my best friend Sonia and saying to her, I need a white blanket. Can you get me a white blanket? I want to give her a blanket. Because I know it sounds silly, but at the time I said, she might be cold. Like, I want a blanket for her. So she came with a blanket. And then I wanted a necklace. My mum, being Italian, we do a lot with gold. I rang up my mum and I said, mum, when you come, can you go pick me a piece of gold for her? Because I thought, you know, I'm never going to be able to give her a crucifix.

0:14:11 - (Pam Chedid): So all these little things went in the coffin with her. They were kind of my little gifts to her as a doll. Little things that. They actually helped me. They were my therapy, really. It wasn't for her because we all know she doesn't need any of that, but it did help me, and I feel that it will help other mothers who are going through a similar journey.

0:14:33 - (Debbie Draybi): That's incredible. You know, really practical things that you can stay connected and also heal, but recognize that the grief is valid. So what I'm hearing is often people, although they were well meaning, were a bit dismissive. Yeah.

0:14:48 - (Pam Chedid): Of course, there was no intent there. That was the way they thought would be best and safest for me to deal with it. But it wasn't the safest thing for me. Talking about it and just saying, hey, this happened, Pam, it's terrible. I'm here for you. We'll never forget that this happened. We'll never forget that she was alive. She was your daughter. She'll still be your daughter forever. And I actually wanted to write her a poem when I first started reading my poetry. And believe it or not, it was one of the last ones I wrote.

0:15:17 - (Pam Chedid): But I wrote it in 10 minutes at the end, so. And it's funny if you read it in my book, it's written from her eyes. It's not written from my eyes. Yeah, it was quite interesting that God helped me to find the words that it came from her because I always thought grief was about me. And, you know, it's just interesting the way it came out. I was very happy with that poem. I love it.

0:15:39 - (Debbie Draybi): It sounds like through your writing, you were able to also give her a voice.

0:15:43 - (Pam Chedid): Absolutely, yes. I did my best, even with my. With my daughters. You know, being a mother and this is one of the most profound things about stillbirth. The first thing that gets you is the guilt, because you think you're a mum and you have a responsibility to clothe them, keep them warm, keep them safe and do everything. And then I felt a. Failed her, you know, I couldn't do those things. And it was a while before I realised. I mean, I carried. I mean, this might sound a bit unusual to some listeners, but I carried her medical report in my bag for a year.

0:16:21 - (Pam Chedid): And whenever I would doubt myself, I would open the medical report and I'd read it and I'm like, okay, Pam, you know, it wasn't your fault it happened. It was a medical reason why it happened. So I had to reassure myself that, for me, helped a lot. The second thing at the time was intense fear. Actually. I was petrified of what I was going to go through, what she would look like, how I'd be after. After the experience, how my family would be left after.

0:16:54 - (Pam Chedid): Would I have another child? Would I be the same person? Will I remember her? All these really important things. The fear was just overwhelming and I had to sift through it, you know, I had to do it one part at a time. And the delivery for me was. It was heartbreaking. I don't know if I can say this, but. I don't know, I just wanted to put her back, you know, I mean, while I was birthing her, I'm like.

0:17:25 - (Pam Chedid): I'm struggling. It was against everything for me. I wanted to keep her in, but I had to let myself go. And it was very hard. And then just seeing my husband sobbing in the corner of the room, it was hard. And my next thing is, I want to protect her. I don't want anyone to see her. And I've always been like that. Even these days, my daughters will ask me, mummy, can we see a photo? And I'm like, my heart's telling me no yet, not yet, because I want to protect Bernie. And for me, that's.

0:17:59 - (Pam Chedid): I still have got that bridge to cross. I think that's the only dignity I can give her.

0:18:05 - (Debbie Draybi): Being able to really hold space for her and to follow your natural instincts as a mum, to protect your child.

0:18:12 - (Pam Chedid): Yeah.

0:18:13 - (Debbie Draybi): So not only was there your natural instincts to protect and support Bernie, but also your body was doing all the natural things that it's supposed to do. After giving birth, do you want to Talk a bit about that.

0:18:27 - (Pam Chedid): So after I gave birth, naturally, the milk comes in. Pretty soon that was very hard for me to deal with as well. And of course, the bleeding pose, you know, postpartum pregnancy, bleeding, all that stuff for me was just like a slap in the face because, you know, here I was. This might sound crazy, but the very next day I sat up out of the bed, my husband came to see me and I said to him, what am I doing in hospital?

0:18:54 - (Pam Chedid): There's no baby, let's go. So I took all the flowers I had, I went down to the chapel at Westmead Public, I left them all there and I said, Christ, you have her now. And I went because I thought, you know, hearing babies down the corridor cry, it was just too profound for me. That was very difficult dealing with the whole postpartum side effects without a baby. And in fact, I was very, very, very vulnerable when it came to even going to my six week check with my gyno.

0:19:28 - (Pam Chedid): So I did actually ring the secretary before I went in and I said, listen, I don't know if I can do it with other babies there. The smell, the sounds. All I've got is silence in my head. Can we maybe do a different appointment? And she was amazing. Said Pam, come at seven. So he came in early for me and I mean, even going to the appointment, I thought, this is silly, why am I even going? You know. But I understood he was worried about me as well and my blood pressure and so forth. But, yeah, that was very difficult.

0:20:01 - (Pam Chedid): So I can imagine be a lot of mums out there that was feeling very vulnerable after and very, very hurt. And you don't want to be that mother where you're the elephant in the room, where people walk in and say, oh, she had a, you know, still. But that's the way it is. We've had that experience, we've been profoundly affected by it. We can't change it. That's why sometimes I just walk in and I'll just, you know, oh, it's a blessing. I always say it's a blessing to all my friends who have babies or I try and, you know, sort of bring a positive out of it because it still affects me 15 years on, I still get triggered by things like that.

0:20:42 - (Eddie Reaiche): Pam, you touched on something earlier when you mentioned guilt. In my experience, a lot of mums, although it's way beyond their control, have this innate guilt that they did something wrong. They caused this somehow. Did you experience any of that?

0:20:59 - (Pam Chedid): Absolutely. I mean, that's what I was saying earlier about carrying around that medical report. Because for me that was my way of backing out of that guilt because it was so intense. It was so intense that I thought surely I must have played a part in this. I mean, could I have gone to more doctor's appointments? Could I have been more sensitive to movement? And like I said, I really did feel something was wrong very early on.

0:21:26 - (Pam Chedid): Why didn't I move on with that more? But at the end, I mean, there was something wrong with her heart and we found out the medical reason for it. Just moving forward with my grief on that journey was very hard.

0:21:40 - (Eddie Reaiche): Yeah, I always get concerned because a lot of women who've gone through things that are similar would have profound sense of guilt thinking it was their fault. And I keep reminding them that I've helped deliver heroin addicted babies and people doing the worst things they can. Yet the babies are born. Yeah, there's no way you could have controlled the outcome. And most women can't control the outcome of what happens with the babies.

0:22:07 - (Pam Chedid): It's very important for them to. And then get the help. You feeling that way? I had a few counselling sessions after the stillbirth. I can't say it was a lot. It was probably about three or four sessions. But like I said, they did help because the lady did tell me that she sort of did reiterate to me that it wasn't my fault. But I needed more convincing. And for me, that was the medical report. Once I had that medical report, it was something concrete that I could look at. And it was there in black and white, you know, two chambers of the heart.

0:22:45 - (Pam Chedid): It was something that I couldn't fix.

0:22:47 - (Debbie Draybi): Being able to look for evidence for yourself to really support and validate that it's not something you could not have changed the outcome.

0:22:55 - (Pam Chedid): No. At all. No. I realize that now. But at the time you're so foggy because you're carrying so much fear, like I said, and you're worrying about everybody else as well. So this is the other thing. The other thing was I had two other children at home and I really wanted to be a present mom. I didn't want to be selfish as it sounded. But even though I was on that journey, I just did not want to take away from them because they were affected too. And then that's why I went on to have another child. I mean I was. I had horrible pregnancies, but I went on and I had my beautiful Joseph. And it was a long journey, you know, in hospital with him as well. But I'm so glad I Did because having daughters who were women, I didn't want them to have go into their pregnancies. Growing up thinking, mum had a stillbirth, how am I going to be, you know, could this happen to me?

0:23:56 - (Pam Chedid): So I was also very protective of them and mindful of their journey, especially being women. What Joseph did for me, he put me back together, the glue, like he. Yeah. And I really enjoyed him. I really did. Because as frightening as that pregnancy was, and I was holding my breath the whole time, and, I mean, God, forgive me, I ask for forgiveness now. I didn't even say one prayer that whole pregnancy. I was too scared to ask for anything. I thought, lord, you know in my heart what I want.

0:24:28 - (Pam Chedid): And, yeah, when I had Joseph, it was just. I was just elated, yeah, having a happy ending. And, you know, Bernie's an integral part of our life. Every birthday and Christmas, we go to the cemetery and we bring a cake and we cut a cake and we sing and we make it something. Because, like I said, I'll never stop honoring her.

0:24:52 - (Debbie Draybi): And it sounds like your writing's been a very big part of that. You started off with one unpublished, and now you've got a published version. Correct. I'm wondering about that. If you want to talk a bit more about how that's helped you in your healing journey.

0:25:05 - (Pam Chedid): As I said before, our Lord really. He really helped me with everything. And I fostered this relationship with Him. I became envious of this time that I had when I was. Had lost Bernie, because I relied purely on him. Like I said before, I asked him to carry it for me because I couldn't. I said, I'll walk beside you, but you carry it. So I became sort of envious of this time. And then when I was in Covid, I started to reflect a lot about why this had happened, why the whole world had slowed down.

0:25:39 - (Pam Chedid): And I thought, I'm just going to start writing about this. So I did. And the very first poem I wrote is called Beginning and the End. And it talks about slowing down and just resetting and coming back to basics. And that's what I did with Christ. I reset again with him and I started writing to him to glorify Him. And it was an amazing journey. The first. The first poem I wrote was I looked back over it and read and went, I can't even write poetry. How did I write this?

0:26:10 - (Pam Chedid): You know? And then I wrote another one and then another one. And then I started to think, maybe this is something that I can do. And I remember being in a mass Just after our big second COVID lockdown, the priest was doing homily on the Beatitudes. And he said that one day we're going to have to give an account to Christ about how we have used all our gifts and talents to honor Him. And I really thought that was our Lord speaking to me. I thought, he's trying to tell me, pam, this is your talent. Honour me.

0:26:41 - (Pam Chedid): So that's what I vowed to do. And from there it's this big love story. But inside my letters there's something for everybody. I mean, there's. There's something for somebody who's going through a health problem, you know, or someone who is going through any kind of crisis when they feel that they can't find Christ and they can't see him, they can't feel Him. There's a beautiful poem there and it's called the Space between youn and I.

0:27:10 - (Pam Chedid): It talks about the feeling where I feel lost, where I can't see Christ and I can't feel Him. And then in the poem, as we journey through, I realise that this space is just love and he is there.

0:27:23 - (Debbie Draybi): So thinking about your journey as a writer, you mentioned that you didn't recognise yourself as that and you were surprised by it initially.

0:27:31 - (Pam Chedid): Absolutely was, because like I said, I wasn't really. I loved poetry when I was at school. I studied it for English, but I never really considered myself a poet. But once I started, it just flowed and I was quite surprised and taken aback by it. And then I had a couple of moments of self doubt, which you do, everybody does, I think. But then I had this beautiful support. My fans, I call them my fans. They're my group of girlfriends who would read it, read my. I'd say, what do you think of this, girls? And they'd read and say, oh my goodness, Pam, you've hit home, keep writing.

0:28:09 - (Pam Chedid): So having that support network was so important and actually two of my children, so Joseph seem to have inspired. Joseph wants to write a book. He started writing a book as well and just interesting writing and publishing at uts. So this is a first year at uni there, so I seem to have made some ripples with my writing. So it's a beautiful, pleasant surprise.

0:28:32 - (Debbie Draybi): Oh, that's wonderful. Thanks for sharing that. Just, you know, for our listeners out there who are curious about an area that they think there's maybe a talent there, you know, what's something that you'd say to them for them to keep growing that and you know, building on that, because it sounds like it's had a profound impact for you.

0:28:50 - (Pam Chedid): I think you've just got to find what you love. And it might be drawing. It might be. And you know what, like when I first started writing, I had no audience. I didn't have any intention of publishing it. But you might surprise yourself. Things happen. And even if it doesn't, even if it's just a personal journey, there's joy and love in that. Surely it's so rewarding to look back over my five and think, I wrote all these things, you know, even if nobody else is going to enjoy them, I can enjoy it and say, I did this. So it's that personal pride as well, which I think is beautiful. It's a good message to sort of take home for the readers, but just hone in and find out what it is.

0:29:32 - (Pam Chedid): I mean, it might be sculpting or. I always find the arts are a little bit therapeutic. Yeah.

0:29:38 - (Eddie Reaiche): Reflecting on this podcast and reflecting on your journey, there are two things that come to mind. One, how much I appreciate you being vulnerable and telling us about your story because it's such a beautiful story. And the other thing that I get from this is how inspirational this is gonna be for so many people. More so because not if they have a stillbirth, if they have a miscarriage, because it's not just the loss of the child, which you've articulated so well, but also the milestones that they'll lose as well. So it's really a double edged sword, of course, and you've articulated that really well and I think that will be inspiring for a lot of people and it will really set something that's going actually hit home when they listen to this and it'll make more sense.

0:30:25 - (Pam Chedid): Oh, that's wonderful to hear. I hope I've been a great help.

0:30:28 - (Debbie Draybi): Would you mind to just share what it's been like for you to be, you know, sharing this story?

0:30:33 - (Pam Chedid): Actually I'm surprised at how open I've been, to be honest, because it's not something I talk about that often. Every year around her birthday, I always put a social media post and I this is the other thing I love when I get messages on her birthday and people say remembering her even 15 years on. So, you know, if you have a friend who has had any kind of pregnancy loss, even if they didn't have a stillborn and they had a miscarriage, remember that.

0:31:04 - (Pam Chedid): Honor that. Because it's just food for the soul really when you, when you receive a message like that, you think, oh, you know, her memory lives on and people acknowledge your feelings and you always feel validated. It always helps.

0:31:19 - (Debbie Draybi): And did you want to tell us a little bit about your social media work?

0:31:22 - (Pam Chedid): So I have a page and it's called Letters to Heaven, of course, so you can look me up on Instagram, but I post little excerpts on there and I also give some ministry into the Catholic ministry into our life, my life journey and things that I deal with on an everyday basis as a Catholic. So if you'd like to tune in there, you're more than welcome to.

0:31:47 - (Debbie Draybi): And I hear that you're a Catholic, using your words that's been marinated. Do you want to tell us a bit about that?

0:31:53 - (Pam Chedid): So I'm actually Italian, but my husband's Lebanese and I always like to say yes, he's marinated me. So it's a bit of fun that we have.

0:32:05 - (Debbie Draybi): Well, thanks, Tammy. It's been lovely chatting to you.

0:32:07 - (Pam Chedid): It's absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me. It's been great.

0:32:17 - (Debbie Draybi): I hope this episode has helped you find sanctuary in this exciting journey of life. All of the resources we've mentioned in this episode are found in the podcast Notes. If you need some assistance with any of the topics discussed in today's episode, then please Visit our website, HSHL.org au if you have any thoughts, comments or ideas, please leave us a comment on Spotify. Alternatively, send us an email@adminshl.org

0:32:46 - (Debbie Draybi): au you& your mental health matters to us and we hope you get one step closer in finding sanctuary. Bye for now.