Getting Real About Antidepressants

The content of this podcast is intended for general information purposes only and does not take into account individual circumstances. It is not a substitute for personal medical or therapeutic advice. Please consult your GP, therapist, or another qualified health professional for guidance tailored to your specific needs.

Key Takeaways:

• Holistic Approach to Mental Health: Combining medication with therapy and spiritual practices offers the most effective path to mental well-being.
• Stigma in Faith-Based Communities: Addressing mental health in religious contexts often involves tackling stigma and misconceptions, emphasising that seeking help is a sign of strength, not weakness.
• Pharmaceutical Insight: Antidepressants can serve as an essential tool, not a lifelong crutch; they enable patients to engage more effectively in therapy and ultimately aim towards gradual reduction in dosage.
• Balance and Risk Management: Therapy and medication should be seen as a dynamic balance; potential side effects require careful management in consultation with healthcare professionals.
• Importance of Community Support: Having a supportive network or "buddy" system can be instrumental during challenging periods of mental health treatment.

Notable Quotes:

1. "It's like breaking your leg and being put in a cast. The medication comes in to help lift your moods, so that therapy can start working." — Jony Raad
2. "Suffering in silence is a sign of strength in some eyes, but having a voice and sharing is the real strength." — Debbie Draybi
3. "Whether it’s religion or a belief in a greater power, it helps people through tougher times, especially with addiction." — Eddie Reaiche
4. "There’s more to healing than just medication—it’s about combining mind, body, and soul approaches." — Jony Raad
5. "Your mental health matters to us, and seeking out help is not a weakness." — Debbie Draybi

For more information on the Hills Sanctuary House visit our website https://hshl.org.au/
You and your mental health is important to us.
Please visit https://hshl.org.au/wp/help-resources/ for help and resources

Do subscribe to this podcast to get the latest episodes of Finding Sanctuary.

Follow us on
Facebook - Christ the Redeemer Maronite Catholic Parish of The Hills
Instagram - @hills_sanctuary_house
Blog - https://hshl.org.au/blog/

Transcript

0:00:00 - (Jony Raad): The content of this podcast is intended for general information purposes only and does not take into account individual circumstances. It is not a substitute for personal, medical or therapeutic advice. Please consult your GP therapist or another qualified health professional for guidance tailored to your specific needs.

0:00:25 - (Debbie Draybi): Welcome to Finding Sanctuary, our shared conversations into how we think and feel and how we find peace and comfort in daily life. We get together with experts to chat about all things mental health, getting insights and understanding on the struggles of life.

0:00:43 - (Eddie Reaiche): Hi, everyone. Today with me, I've got the podcast queen, the hostess with the mostess, Debbie Draby.

0:00:52 - (Debbie Draybi): Oh, Eddie, that's very sweet. Why are you being so nice to me?

0:00:56 - (Eddie Reaiche): Because I'm hosting this time and you're not.

0:00:59 - (Debbie Draybi): I'll be gentle, I promise.

0:01:02 - (Eddie Reaiche): I'm asking the questions here, so just remember that.

0:01:05 - (Jony Raad): Lucky me.

0:01:07 - (Eddie Reaiche): And I have Joanie Raad. And Joanie Raad is our resident pharmacist who also works as an admin person for HSH as well.

0:01:17 - (Jony Raad): Slowly shifting career paths.

0:01:19 - (Eddie Reaiche): So welcome aboard, Joni, and I'm glad you could make it here with us as well.

0:01:23 - (Jony Raad): Thank you very much, Eddie and Debbie, thank you for having me. It's interesting to be here. Usually I'm on the other side of this door watching you guys run the podcast, so Stephen's being the hot seat.

0:01:34 - (Eddie Reaiche): I really wish you guys had a camera to see this because you should see the face on her right now. She's so nervous. Today we're gonna be talking about medication and mental health, one of my favorite subjects. And so I'm gonna be asking Joni a lot of questions and I'm gonna ask Debbie as well some of her lived experience as a clinical counselor and some of the things that she's been through with clients. And I'll share some of my stor.

0:02:05 - (Eddie Reaiche): But first, I think what I'll do is I'll ask Joanie what's been your experience with medication as a pharmacist and dealing with patients who come to see you with medication and some of the things they may go through and some of the questions they may ask you as well.

0:02:21 - (Jony Raad): So I've been a pharmacist for say about well over 10 years now, have worked in many different avenues, so worked in retail pharmacy, as a pharmacist in dispensary, and then also worked in compounding medications. So we tailor make certain medications for patients with mental health disorders. Also became an aged care specialist. And particularly with aged care, you do see an increase in antidepressants, antipsychotics and the likes.

0:02:50 - (Jony Raad): I've got A very extensive view, I'd say, of kind of seeing different patients and how they've been prescribed medications, how they respond to medications, what their attitudes and beliefs are towards medications. It's been a lot to see with regards to being a pharmacist in the pharmacy. In a retail pharmacy, you get a lot of patients who have lots of differing views when it comes to antidepressant use, particularly.

0:03:19 - (Jony Raad): I worked in pharmacies across Sydney, but the most I've worked is in one in South West Sydney. A lot of people who are similar to our community from different faiths, and each person comes with their own individual set of beliefs. When it comes to antidepressants, you're kind of in a little bit of a battle because you're trying to help break down those views, but there isn't a long enough interaction in the pharmacy to do so. You know, as pharmacists, sometimes people would come in and they're like waiting for their scripts and then they get a bit impatient and we get that, but we're also juggling a lot. So it's hard to counsel patients when they do come in, but we try our best.

0:04:01 - (Jony Raad): So we do get patients with antidepressants that come in and they're very wary. They come in and they're like, my doctor's prescribed this and I really don't want to be taking it. I didn't think I was this bad. And then they've said to me that I also need to see a therapist, and I don't believe in that. And so you kind of start pressing them, trying to get to, you know, the root cause, like, what's the problem here?

0:04:22 - (Jony Raad): And sometimes they'll say, a lot of them come from very strong faith backgrounds. They'll say things like, I feel guilty. You know, praying is going to help me with this, not this medication. This medication isn't going to help. I get a lot of other patients that are really worried about whether or not they're going to get addicted to the medication. And that's a real concern because there are certain medications that are addictive, and it's become a bit of a problem, you know, with opiates and things like that. And the government's trying to curb that.

0:04:52 - (Jony Raad): So it's hard to juggle trying to meet their expectations, but also trying to give them the facts. And so I do explain to them antidepressants like SSRIs, they're not addictive. You won't get addicted to things like that. They work to increase the serotonin which elevates your moods. And I don't want you to be on this long term as much as you don't want to be on this long term. And we try explaining to them.

0:05:17 - (Jony Raad): And I had a therapist explain this to me and it was a really good analogy. It's like breaking your leg and then being put in a cast. And you're in the cast for six to eight weeks. Rehab comes along, physio comes along. And so while we're trying to get that cast off you, you've got to do the rehab, you've got to do the work, you've got to do the physio. And so as the cast comes off the rehab increase, the physio increases to try and get you to a point where you're actually better.

0:05:42 - (Jony Raad): And so I liken that so much to medication usage when it comes to therapy, because when you go to a GP and you've got major depression or high levels of anxiety, a GP is going to offer you the medication and they're also going to say, or they should say, you've got to see a therapist. You. You've got to do these things together. And GPs generally do give us holistic advice when it comes to that. You know, you've also got to take care of yourself, start exercising.

0:06:08 - (Jony Raad): Vitamin D levels need to increase. Vitamin D is big when it comes to depression. People get seasonal depression in certain countries around the world because winter they don't get the vitamin D. There's so many factors that come into play. So at the end of the day, it's reminding the patients that just like the cast comes in, the medication comes in to help lift your moods so that once you. You go to therapy, you can actually be in a better place to accept that advice and be able to then, you know, utilise the strategies better that the therapist offers. And then you start building up those strategies and those habits.

0:06:42 - (Jony Raad): We get you to a point where the habits then start climbing up. We can start tapering down the medication and then you don't have to be on it long term. And generally speaking, antidepressants could be used for six to 12 months, right? Until you're in a better space and you're doing all the other stuff because it's multifaceted. It's not just take the medic. The medication is not gonna fix you, they're gonna help you.

0:07:05 - (Eddie Reaiche): That was a really good analogy, Joanie. I really like that analogy about the casc. Do you see that in your practice or when you had a practice running?

0:07:14 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah. Absolutely. I think one of the things I noticed is both sides, actually. People that are reliant on the medication and don't wanna engage in the therapy and don't see the purpose of it, and then others that could probably benefit for some medication to further enhance the therapy and as you said, en present and to think about some of the practices and the changes. So I think medication and therapy can really be complementary.

0:07:42 - (Debbie Draybi): It can really enable, particularly where they are crippled by the symptoms and they can't really show up fully in therapy until those symptoms are better managed and even being able to tell their stories and have that openness even. We talk a lot on this podcast around vulnerability. Sometimes it needs a bit of assistance first physiologically, because we know that there's such a huge connection. We talk about that a lot in this podcast with the body and how it affects our cognitions and they're all interrelated. So I think it's about complimenting and, you know, getting advice from your doctor around the best way to do that.

0:08:21 - (Jony Raad): And the way I liken it is when you're in a state like that, the way I kind of explain it to some people, it's like, you know, having a tangled ball of yarn in your head. And sometimes no matter how hard you try, you can't untangle that yourself. Going to therapy or then sitting there and waiting for a therapist to untangle it for you. But you just can't get yourself to that place. And sometimes that's what the medication does help with in those scenarios to really get you to a place where your mind can be that little bit clearer so that you can be a lot more open and engaged in therapy.

0:08:52 - (Eddie Reaiche): In my experience, I've had a lot of clients who need the medication because a lot of therapies tailored around people's cognitions or the way we think now, if you can't think, it's really hard to have therapy or to get the benefits of therapy. So then they need medication. Now when they take the medication, they're so worried and scared about the medication that when they do do it, and then you have to go through the first two weeks where your condition will get worse before it gets better.

0:09:24 - (Eddie Reaiche): It's a hard sell to tell someone it's going to make you worse. But then after six, when they're back to normal, because it doesn't. And I want to talk about myths after this because it's really interesting how people think about it. But after six weeks, they're back to who they were before all this happened. And Then when they feel fine, then they get worried about stopping the medication because they don't want to go back to where they were.

0:09:50 - (Eddie Reaiche): So it's kind of like a real catch 22 with clients. And then it's a matter of trying to sell therapy and say, well, the therapy will get you off the medication, so you're not on this for the rest of your life.

0:10:00 - (Jony Raad): That's right.

0:10:01 - (Eddie Reaiche): Do you sense that as well?

0:10:03 - (Jony Raad): Yeah, a lot. And a lot, actually, with personal experience. When it comes to people around me who they know I'm a pharmacist, I'm like the friendly 24 hour on call doctor. So they would just give me a call and they'll be like, listen, I've been prescribed this and I haven't really told anyone because there's still a big taboo around taking antidepressants and I'm doing okay. But, you know, I've been told that I need this medication, but they've told me it's going to make me feel worse before I feel better.

0:10:28 - (Jony Raad): And that's where I kind of try to highlight to them that, did they offer you therapy as well? And they said, well, yeah, they did, but I didn't really think I needed it. I thought the medication was just kind of, you know, it's going to lift me up. And I'm like, yeah, it does. Now, the side effect of that medication causing you to feel worse before you feel better isn't very common, but it does happen.

0:10:51 - (Jony Raad): And so I try and get them to really make sure that they have a support system around them where it's like, if you're aware that you are starting to feel worse, I need you to make sure that you've got like a buddy, like somebody that's going to tap in and go, you can tell them, hey, I'm really having a really low night tonight. Can we go? And they'll be like, yep, I'm coming to pick you up. Let's hang out, let's do something. Let's get you out of that state of mind you're in just to get you through those couple of weeks until you see the effects of the medication. And majority of the time the effects increase and there it works for them.

0:11:25 - (Eddie Reaiche): Debbie, have you heard any of the myths, some of the things people are worried about in taking medication?

0:11:31 - (Debbie Draybi): Well, I think Joanie just mentioned one earlier, particularly people of the faith where they feel like they've failed in their faith somehow and they question whether it's legitimate. I mean, something that they would possibly never do with a Physical illness and medication for physical illness. So that's something that I've seen quite a bit where they're questioning the validity of it and almost questioning their own faith.

0:11:57 - (Debbie Draybi): And, yeah, that's been a big one. I think the other one is around, similar to what Joni said earlier, that it's highly addictive and they can be reliant on it for the rest of their life. And it's almost like, you know, something that's permanent and not seeing that. You know, again, if you have an infection and you have antibiotics, you don't expect or question that you're gonna be on it for the rest of your life. And I often try and do that, talk about, well, if this was a physical thing, you wouldn't be having these same ideas, would you? It's almost like with mental health, there are a lot more sort of fears and a bit of hysteria, really. Whereas we do accept that we take medication for physical illness, and it's just the norm. We're confident that it's working, and we're confident that it's temporary, and we don't question our faith with it.

0:12:45 - (Debbie Draybi): They're the three main ones that I see.

0:12:47 - (Jony Raad): I think that the one with faith and needing to rely on God and praying it out, it's a hard one. Because generally with cultures, you know, that rely on faith or, you know, very religious, there's this notion where we are meant to be mentally strong, and we have survived a lot in our lives. And so it's almost this image of I can't let people know that I'm struggling in the mind. And I have this conversation a lot with older family members.

0:13:18 - (Jony Raad): And it's like, you've been strong for a very long time, but it doesn't make you weak to ask for help, to take a medication just to lift those moods. It actually makes you strong enough to say, hey, I need help.

0:13:31 - (Eddie Reaiche): One of the saddest things I've come across is the fact that people say I should be stronger because my parents were stronger or someone else was strong.

0:13:39 - (Jony Raad): That's hard.

0:13:40 - (Eddie Reaiche): But all they've uncovered is people have suffered in silence. That's all they've uncovered. You'll hear a lot of people say I had depression. I had postnatal depression, had a situation where someone close to home had postnatal depression, went through everything. Gidget foundation, the whole lot. Nothing worked. And then when I said, look, the only thing left now is medication, the family pulled back and started coming at me because, why are you saying medication?

0:14:06 - (Eddie Reaiche): Their fear was. It was going to change her. And I said, all it's going to do is going to bring her back to who she is. It's not going to change her. And the old days, they used to use a lot of the. The Valium type medication which made them drowsy sedatives. Yeah, exactly. And so that's their experience, whereas it's all changed so much. And I think it's really important to note that when it comes to therapy and medication, the research is there now to justify having both having the best outcome.

0:14:41 - (Jony Raad): Yes.

0:14:42 - (Eddie Reaiche): When it's just therapy and if it's severe, doesn't work that well. If it's just medication, the minute you go off medication back to where you started. But when it's a combination of medication first, then therapy can do its work. Then as you reduce the medication and the therapy sort of helping you at the right pace, that's a permanent solution. And so there's a lot of evidence that supports that as an effective way of doing things.

0:15:10 - (Debbie Draybi): I like that analogy that you said earlier about the rehab for the mind that's describing therapy in that way. And I think that's a tricky one for our community who don't have familiarity with talking. Therapy is, again, there are a lot of myths around what it actually is. And I just wondered about that. What are some of the things that your clients are scared of when you do mention therapy? What's some of the things that you notice?

0:15:36 - (Jony Raad): I think because they've been strong for so long, it's a matter of not wanting to open up to a stranger. They really don't want to tell a stranger their problems. And then they kind of then diminish their problems. They're like, they're not real problems. They're not, don't worry about me. Thank God, I'm doing great. Somebody else has it a lot worse. And I think that's a kind of protective mechanism because it's helped them to kind of push through and keep going.

0:16:05 - (Jony Raad): But, you know, you find that the attitudes are still the same. No real change is made. But going back to what you were saying about the research, they're now starting to finally do research on what a combination of medication, therapy and spiritual. So factoring in someone's religious practices and how those three together are actually starting to look like the best outcome. And it's incredible to see because now they're starting to question, well, do GPs and therapists need to start asking their clients or their patients what are their belief systems and how can we incorporate that into your healing and it's really great to see.

0:16:53 - (Jony Raad): There's been studies on patients with addiction in rehabs and how spirituality, their religious practices. And they did do it on. I think it was Christianity specifically, how that's actually helped them to not return to rehab. So it's actually really incredible to see. And it's what attracted me to Hill Sanctuary House because it is a mind, body, soul approach. It's not just, you know, take the medication and be on your merry way. It's not just. Just go to therapy and you'll be fine. It's really combining so many different factors.

0:17:29 - (Jony Raad): And I've learned so much about, like, protective factors and how protective factors support systems. A protective factor is religion and how that kind of protects people from suffering a lot more than people who don't have those protective factors. It's really. It's a big learning curve for me. I'm enjoying. Yeah, it's been good.

0:17:51 - (Eddie Reaiche): Well, we all know how important spirituality is, particularly in the addiction area. A lot of the programs, they give it a funny name, like whether it's religion or power power or something like that, whatever your religion is or your conviction is. And they use it a lot because as long as you believe in a power greater than yourself, whether it be God for us, the fact is it helps them get through their addiction much better.

0:18:19 - (Eddie Reaiche): I've had a lot of my clients. I've actually recently asked the clients, or, sorry, suggested they go do the alpha course over at Christ the Redeemer. It is an amazing program, and it's changing lives. It's so good. And I think it's the fact that we can actually really delve into our spirituality. And sometimes when people with addiction think, why am I here? Why doesn't God help me? And I wonder, sometimes you have to really think about it. Is it always about the destination, or is there something really important about the journey to appreciate the destination?

0:18:55 - (Eddie Reaiche): And I think that's really important point for a lot of people to take with them. Everyone wants to be fixed. Everyone wants to just get a therapy and say, just tell me what I have to do and just let me get there. But they're not ready for that goal. And so you give them the tools and what they need, and by the time they get to where they want to be, they're a totally different person, but they're a better version of who they were.

0:19:19 - (Eddie Reaiche): And I think that's really important. But going back to medication, what are the pitfalls? What are some of the side effects they get?

0:19:26 - (Jony Raad): All of them are different, but you know, you get some patients who get insomnia, some get weight gain.

0:19:32 - (Eddie Reaiche): Oh, everyone's gonna hate that one.

0:19:37 - (Jony Raad): There's a myriad of different side effects, and we make sure that they know that you're not going to go without side effects with medication. It's always a risk, first benefit. So we always look at it as like, if this is going to benefit you more than there's any risks involved in terms of side effects and things like that, then you go right ahead. If it's not the right one for you, come back, go back to the GP and we trial out something else. But if you're finding it's working for you and you can try and manage some of those side effects, that's with every medication.

0:20:10 - (Jony Raad): We're talking from blood pressure to diabetes, everything. There's always going to be that dual battle that you want to do.

0:20:18 - (Eddie Reaiche): It's always that balancing act.

0:20:19 - (Jony Raad): Yes, it is.

0:20:20 - (Eddie Reaiche): So it's not really cause and effect. It's benefit versus.

0:20:24 - (Jony Raad): It's benefit versus risk. That's what it is. So sometimes we have to look at antidepressant use in pregnancy, because some women really struggle with the hormonal imbalances after pregnancy, and there's postnatal, and then they're afraid of going through that again. And so the doctor will say, okay, we can put you on this medication during pregnancy. It's not known to cause harm. There's been studies, but there is a risk with everything.

0:20:49 - (Jony Raad): And so we really need to explain to patients and make sure that they're aware. That's one of the pitfalls, I find. It's also when they stop abruptly. So when they think I'm feeling great or, you know, there's a compliance issue, and they're kind of forgetting every day because it's hard to take the same tablet at the same time every day and just keep that up. And so sometimes we find a patient will come in and they're like, something's happening to me, getting the sweats and I'm not sleeping. And I'm like, okay. First thing I think of is, did you take your medication?

0:21:22 - (Jony Raad): Yeah, but I missed a day or two. And I'm like, oh, they're having withdrawals. So always when you want to start weaning off the medication, give your doctor a call and just say, hey, I want to wean off. And they'll give you a plan. Usually takes about a week or two, and you slowly cut back so that you don't feel those side effects.

0:21:41 - (Eddie Reaiche): Yeah, I think it's a good Time to let our listeners know that when we talk about withdrawals, it's not the same as addictive medication withdrawals. It's kind of like whenever these medications, they have have a buildup effect and the most safest way of letting them go is have almost like a drop down effect. And if you do it slowly and with with the doctor's approval, he'll give you the regime. Withdrawal effects aren't like an addiction thing.

0:22:11 - (Eddie Reaiche): You don't take a tablet and get a high. You don't ever feel that there's no high at all. You can get high on life, but that's about all. But the medication itself never gives you a high.

0:22:20 - (Jony Raad): No, that's right. Not with antidepressants.

0:22:22 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah, high on love too, apparently.

0:22:27 - (Eddie Reaiche): Gotta get these serotonin levels right.

0:22:28 - (Debbie Draybi): Before you do that, I was curious about what you said earlier about what attracted you to Hill Sanctuary House. And as a pharmacist it sounded like you had a craving for more. You understood pharmacy has its place, medication has its place. But for healing there needs to be more. And I wonder whether we can just elaborate a bit more around that.

0:22:50 - (Jony Raad): And what's your asking tough questions.

0:22:52 - (Debbie Draybi): How you came, you know, how you came to be with us and join our team.

0:22:55 - (Jony Raad): I just think slowly with time, you know, you work in the industry and you see that medications have a place. But time and time again we expect medications to fix us. And a lot of the time they're like band aid fixers slapping on a band aid and you're hoping that that's going to fix your broken arm. It's not going to work. And so I realized also paired with my faith journey. So I came into my faith about 10 years ago.

0:23:22 - (Jony Raad): So it was just like a slow path towards realizing that there's more to it, There has to be more to it. And the reason why I speak a lot about when patients speak to me about faith and why God I'm going to turn to God, not going to turn to medication or therapy is because, yes, I have been to therapy before. And so I can see firsthand as somebody who is practicing in my faith how sometimes when I go to adoration and I used to sit there and I used to sit there for hours, like I'm a big proponent of sitting there overnight. And like people would look at me and think, oh my gosh, it's because it would take me so long to silence my mind, to get myself to a space where I'm like, finally I'm actually able to pray because my mind wouldn't switch off. There was so many things happening in there.

0:24:14 - (Jony Raad): I was going at 100 kilometres an hour and I couldn't stop it. And so it would take so long for me to try and calm myself and get into prayer. And then finally I'm like, oh, okay, we're here. And it's taken me hours. And that's when I realized, you have your faith, but sometimes your mental health can be a roadblock. And so you got it again with the ball of yarn. That's what it felt like in my head.

0:24:38 - (Jony Raad): And so it was like, no, I need to start untangling this. I need to start getting to a point where things unravel. And then, you know, this thread is family life and this thread is, I was like studying uni and this thread is this and this thread is that. And then you get to a point where you're like, okay, this is a bit clearer now. Now I can go and sit and pray and it's not taking me that long. It's like, okay, I can get myself in a better head space.

0:25:01 - (Jony Raad): That's when I really realised, nah, there's something going on. We've got to place more importance on mental health and we've got to kind of tie them all in together and really figure out what the whole approach is. It's not enough to just do one of them. There's a whole approach here.

0:25:19 - (Eddie Reaiche): It's been such a good topic to talk about because a lot of people in our community have a lot of fear around medication as well as therapy. And I think it's a great way how both of you have managed to sort of make it something less scary and something we can actually ask questions about, because a lot of our fear is based on uncertainty and fear of the unknown. And so I think it's really important that we actually ask the right people. And there's people everywhere, they can ask and see whether or not rather than asking their next door neighbor or Matt amma or someone like that, ask the professionals who deal with it all the time.

0:25:59 - (Eddie Reaiche): Debbie, is there anything you wanted to say?

0:26:01 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah, look, thanks for sharing your reflection. I know we've been working together and it's just nice to hear your story of how you. Your experience as a clinician in pharmacy and then your faith journey and then thinking about mental health and how you've combined them. And it's something that we want to build together. And I really think that your lived experience is so. Prof. And it's influenced how this program has evolved and I really appreciate the contributions that you make. And I think we need to have you behind the microphone more often. Just saying.

0:26:34 - (Debbie Draybi): Because you're a natural.

0:26:35 - (Jony Raad): You are, really.

0:26:36 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah. And is there anything, any other parting wisdom that you want to leave for our listeners?

0:26:41 - (Jony Raad): Don't be afraid to seek help. Don't hold yourself back. If you're not going to do it for yourself, do it for those around you. Like, as a mum with kids, you know, it gets to the point where it's like, I'm not just doing this for me.

0:26:55 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah.

0:26:55 - (Jony Raad): I'm doing it for those, for my kids, for my partner, for my family.

0:27:00 - (Debbie Draybi): And I think that's just been really profound. What I've heard you say a few times is around sometimes there is this perception that suffering in silence is a sign of strength. But what we're trying to build here as a community in this podcast is having a voice and sharing is the strength and vulnerability. Takes a lot of strength to be open and to share in the way that we're really breaking that silence. Because suffering alone is very isolating. And, you know, it just perpetuates the pain unnecessarily.

0:27:33 - (Eddie Reaiche): And the other thing that you said about some people saying, there's always someone worse off than me, there's always someone worse off than all of us. But really, you're just as important as the next person and we want to spend that time with you. We don't think about anybody else. It's just us and you. And I think it's important for them to carry that and stop thinking about anybody else.

0:27:56 - (Debbie Draybi): But thank you. Thanks for all the support that you give the community and being so available and accessible to everyone.

0:28:02 - (Jony Raad): Thank you, guys. I'm humbled to be here.

0:28:11 - (Debbie Draybi): I hope this episode has helped you find sanctuary in this exciting journey of life. All of the resources we've mentioned in this episode are found in the podcast notes. If you need some assistance with any of the topics discussed in today's episode, then please Visit our website, HSHL.org au if you have any thoughts, comments or ideas, please leave us a comment on Spotify. Alternatively, send us an email@adminshl.org

0:28:40 - (Debbie Draybi): au you& your mental health matters to us, and we hope you get one step closer in finding sanctuary. Bye for now.