The Power of Community in Creative Industries - Dodie Jay and George John

Resources:

• George John Photography on Instagram
• Dodie Jay Hair on Instagram

About the Guests:

Dodie Jay: Dodie Jay is a renowned hairstylist in the wedding industry, known for her authentic and candid approach to her craft. With a commitment to building her clients' self-esteem, Dodie has crafted a career that balances personal passion and professional excellence. Her journey has been marked by resilience, having triumphed over personal health challenges, and she now shares her expertise with a curated list of clients and a dedicated team.

George John: George John is a highly respected photographer who specializes in capturing weddings and other significant life moments. Known for his ability to blend authenticity with artistry, George has built a successful career by prioritizing client relationships and creating beautiful, timeless images. His approach is deeply rooted in understanding the unique expectations of each wedding couple, ensuring their special day is beautifully preserved in photographs.

Key Takeaways:

• The role of community and support networks is crucial in managing mental health within high-pressure industries like weddings.
• Personal challenges can lead to profound personal and professional growth, as exemplified by Dodie's experience overcoming cancer.
• Maintaining authenticity in client interactions fosters trust and long-term success in the service industry.
• Balancing personal boundaries helps manage the intense demands of creative professions.
• Building a positive team culture and treating colleagues well can significantly enhance professional satisfaction and client outcomes.

Notable Quotes:

• "As individuals, we definitely have roles that require pressure... I wouldn't be able to do that without the support system that I have."
• "Recovering from cancer was harder than having cancer."
• "It's pressure that seems like a lot from the outside, but we are fortunate enough to be distracted by everything else."
• "I think communication and education are two really important things with any service based transaction."
• "My biggest blessing is that truly, it doesn't feel like I'm working."

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Transcript

0:00:00 - (Natalie Moujalli): Hi, and welcome back to another episode of Finding Sanctuary. Today we're joined by Dodie Jay, hair stylist, and George John, photographer.

0:00:10 - (George John): Hello.

0:00:11 - (Natalie Moujalli): Two big names in the wedding industry. Thank you so much for joining us, guys.

0:00:15 - (Dodie Jay): Thanks for having us.

0:00:16 - (George John): Oh, I'm excited.

0:00:17 - (Natalie Moujalli): I'm excited.

0:00:19 - (Dodie Jay): I was like, I'm nervous.

0:00:20 - (George John): You're a bit nervous.

0:00:21 - (Natalie Moujalli): You're nervous. You do the crew table. I've heard that.

0:00:23 - (George John): I know, but I'm not on this side of the table, Okay. I control the table well.

0:00:28 - (Natalie Moujalli): Today, I'm in control. Don't be scared.

0:00:30 - (George John): I'm all right. I'm right.

0:00:31 - (Natalie Moujalli): You're safe. In the hands of a therapist, that's even worse.

0:00:35 - (George John): I feel like you can read my brain a little bit. I can't, but that's okay.

0:00:38 - (Natalie Moujalli): Maybe a little bit, but not heaps.

0:00:40 - (George John): All right. Whatever you read, just don't say it out loud.

0:00:43 - (Natalie Moujalli): Okay. I'll keep it between us. Confidentiality is key when it comes to this industry. Last episode, we had Jade on talking a little bit about weddings and kind of the culture that surrounds it and also ways in which he deals with his role within the industry. So I thought I'd start by building off that a little bit and asking you both. You know, you're both big household names when it comes to the wedding industry.

0:01:05 - (Natalie Moujalli): How do you keep yourselves in check and your mental health in check? Because I know there's a lot of pressure when it comes to working in these roles.

0:01:13 - (Dodie Jay): I think community is a really, really big part of it. I think as individuals, we definitely have roles, and we do have roles that require pressure. It definitely requires that we sort of check our baggage at the door day in, day out. And I think I individually wouldn't be able to do that without the support system that I have. Like, I have amazing friends, amazing family, people who get it. Like, I'll finish work and not answer my phone calls and not talk to anyone for four hours, and they're okay with giving me that space because I need to, like, recharge. I can call George on a Saturday and offload and not listen to anything he has to say in return.

0:01:49 - (Dodie Jay): Just to get it off my chest. The perfect friendship, you know? So I feel like when I really think about it, in hindsight, it takes qualities of your own to be a type of way, but I think you can't do it without the right support.

0:02:01 - (George John): I fully agree. I was almost gonna say we have.

0:02:03 - (Natalie Moujalli): No choice other than to access those support networks or to get through these things.

0:02:09 - (George John): No, just, like, not be on there Is no choice when you're working in our field, it is someone's biggest day of their life. And no matter what's happening on at home or in your own personal life, you have to find your own way to just switch on.

0:02:20 - (Natalie Moujalli): Yeah. So how do you have to be on in your clients lives?

0:02:24 - (George John): You just kind of. I don't know. For me, I always put myself back in their shoes. I remember the day I got married or you know, just any big milestone in my life, even if it was like my brother's wedding or you know, any, anyone's kind of situation where they're at their happiest bubble or I call it the honeymoon phase. I just keep thinking about what my expectation was in that moment. I try to literally just roll reverse a little bit and just understand what should I be doing right now. So it's always greeting people with a big smile, walking in at the first step of the morning, really happy and positive and you know, some days are tougher than others and things go on in Life and US 99% of the time it's like happy times and you're really like buzzing and excited. But life is life.

0:03:01 - (Dodie Jay): Sometimes you can't control.

0:03:02 - (George John): You just gotta, yeah, go through how it flows. But you just literally gotta make that choice of just showing up, showing up and being happy, not showing up and dragging your feet.

0:03:10 - (Natalie Moujalli): That sounds hard. You know, you're people, so I know that you deliver a service and an amazing service at that, but you're still people. So you have bad days I would assume. How do you manage turning up and turning it up for your client when maybe sometimes you're not in the best place.

0:03:28 - (Dodie Jay): I think I'm a little bit thick headed in the same way Georgie is where it's just a non negotiable. I have no choice. I've committed to this job, this booking, this service, I've committed to doing it. I just need to check my baggage at the door and deliver at the end of the day. We have different talents but we are service providers and it is a customer centric service that we provide. So at any point in time in that service, it's actually not about me as a service provider.

0:03:55 - (Dodie Jay): I have a responsibility and obligation. I gave them a contract, they signed it and no matter what's going on, sometimes you just have to just deal with it later. I think that's how I've gotten through most things in life. Just go to work and do with it later.

0:04:07 - (Natalie Moujalli): It's determination really. You're determined to follow through on the service that you promised someone, which obviously your reputation rests on that as well. So I can see why you do that. But I think it would be difficult when you're going through life challenges like. Jodi, you've mentioned previously in a discussion that you've had some health challenges, like just under a decade ago. So I would imagine that it would be very hard to work through that whilst you're going through something so life altering.

0:04:36 - (Natalie Moujalli): Can you tell us a little bit about that?

0:04:38 - (Dodie Jay): I feel like a lot of people know the story. For those who don't, I was diagnosed with cancer when I was 23, stage four. It was a bit of almost like a life or death situation, but I was very saved from the situation rather fast, thank God. So it was less than a year of, like, treatment and like, that sort of experience at the time. I didn't work, so I actually didn't have to go through that juggle of going through something and then leaving that at the door.

0:05:02 - (Dodie Jay): I was so unwell that I sort of in hospital, so I didn't have to deal with that. Although the year following that experience, recovering from that, it's almost like when you're going through something hard, everyone's there to be like, they're there. And once it's over, recovering from cancer was harder than having cancer. And I think a big part of it was a lot of your support is like, but you don't have cancer. You're like, yeah, right. I don't know who I am. But okay, you don't know who you are anymore.

0:05:30 - (Natalie Moujalli): Like, after having been through cancer and coming out on the other end, who am I now?

0:05:35 - (Dodie Jay): Yeah.

0:05:36 - (Natalie Moujalli): And then that's when the support kind of drops off.

0:05:38 - (Dodie Jay): Drops off. The advice is generally like, oh, but you're not dying. And I'm like, oh, okay. So I definitely felt the pinch of that because I went back to work right away. And I guess that's where I really learned to, you know, leave it at the door. I'm sure in hindsight, in those few years, like a great example. I'm very close with someone in the industry, Tanya. Like, we have worked together for. I've known Tanya since I was in school, and we lived in a similar area.

0:06:05 - (Dodie Jay): We worked together for 10 years before we became friends. And it was just because she had a perception of me because the version of me that I was presenting to everyone was very guarded. It was like a big front. And if anything, I came across as not warm and welcoming. It wasn't until I sort of grew through that that she Was able to sort of see me for who I was and then not be so nervous to. Yeah. Like, penetrate me, approach me, get to know me, connect with you. Yeah.

0:06:31 - (Natalie Moujalli): And maybe you were a different version of yourself after you'd been through something like that. Because it's inevitable that something like that will change you. We call it post traumatic growth. Sometimes, you know, you go through traumatic experience and there's this growth on the other end where you do change.

0:06:49 - (Dodie Jay): I just think that's life.

0:06:50 - (Natalie Moujalli): It is life.

0:06:51 - (Dodie Jay): Wisdom is, like. They say, wisdom comes with age, but wisdom comes with life experience.

0:06:55 - (Natalie Moujalli): Agreed.

0:06:56 - (George John): So I think we're on autopilot all the time.

0:06:59 - (Dodie Jay): Yeah.

0:07:00 - (George John): Like, people don't realize that with our job, it's, like, boring to discuss, but it's so rigid and scheduled that it's like, go, go, go. There is no time for thought.

0:07:10 - (Natalie Moujalli): Especially when your business, like, how do you manage when your life's a little bit chaotic or you've got a challenge?

0:07:15 - (George John): It just doesn't. It doesn't even enter the car before you hit there. I don't know how to describe it in. If something is really, like, intense, like a big week, even if it's not anything right, like what we're thinking, it's like just a stressful week. Like a big, big week. My wife and I will have small little things that we do. So for instance, on the weekend, she'll stay at her mum's. If I have a Friday, Saturday, Sunday wedding, I have my own kind of time to kind of knock it out, be in that energy and be in that mood for weddings in that sense.

0:07:43 - (George John): So I go to sleep on my own, wake up on my own. So, like, it's constant. It becomes like a rhythm. But that's always not a luxury that we always kind of.

0:07:50 - (Natalie Moujalli): It comes back to support.

0:07:51 - (George John): It comes back to support. But we both are the business owners, so we have a team following us. If we're not on, our team's not on. When I enter bride prep, the first thing I'm doing on the way there is calling my second shooter to make sure that he's, like, on par, on schedule. What time you start at the groom's house. And I know you're the same with your assistants. Like, if we aren't there, they're not there.

0:08:12 - (Natalie Moujalli): If you're not there steering the ship, nothing's moving.

0:08:14 - (George John): Yeah, there's so much happening. There's so much at stake.

0:08:16 - (Natalie Moujalli): That's a lot of pressure.

0:08:18 - (George John): It's pressure, I think, that we're used to. I think it's Pressure. It seems like a lot from the outside, but it's more just like. I guess what I'm trying to get to is fortunate enough to be distracted by everything else.

0:08:28 - (Natalie Moujalli): So sometimes it's a welcome distraction.

0:08:30 - (George John): Well, I welcome it because it's like, rather than think about what else is happening.

0:08:34 - (Natalie Moujalli): Yeah. So rather than getting bogged down in whatever else is going on in your life. Yeah.

0:08:37 - (George John): Positive or negative. Right.

0:08:39 - (Natalie Moujalli): It's a welcome distraction.

0:08:40 - (George John): 100%.

0:08:41 - (Natalie Moujalli): And I can see that that might have happened for you as well.

0:08:43 - (Dodie Jay): My whole life, it's not until now that I'm like, I'm just gonna read a book. Like, it's not until now that I finally. I guess in, like, my personal evolution, I've come to a point where I'm so happy in the calm. Whereas my whole life. No, I'm doing 100 things at once and, you know, trying to conquer the world and, you know, all the things we're in charge of, the benchmark that we sort of work towards.

0:09:06 - (Dodie Jay): Yeah. It took me, I guess, a bit of wisdom and experience to finally get to a place where I'm like, more content.

0:09:10 - (Natalie Moujalli): Yeah. And can sit.

0:09:12 - (Dodie Jay): Can sit in the slow.

0:09:13 - (Natalie Moujalli): Yeah. Sit in it a little bit. Because I think you need to get to a certain point in your life where you allow yourself to sit in the calm and it doesn't scare you so much.

0:09:23 - (Dodie Jay): It's a good place to be.

0:09:24 - (Natalie Moujalli): Yeah. We're talking about how full on your job can be. How do you set boundaries between your work and your personal life?

0:09:31 - (George John): Jorge?

0:09:32 - (Dodie Jay): Boundaries.

0:09:33 - (George John): I don't know if I have boundaries.

0:09:35 - (Natalie Moujalli): What are they?

0:09:36 - (George John): Yeah, I wish I had boundaries. Really? Yeah. I operate from home, so my office is connected.

0:09:41 - (Natalie Moujalli): Okay.

0:09:42 - (George John): I guess, like, you know, in my internal life, I always think back about my wife and my kids and my parents. They just know my personality. So if I'm like, don't contact me unless it's an emergency. They pretty much do that. They know my time schedules. They know what it's like. But I'm a pretty, like, I don't know, you know me, My door's always open. Like, people always in and out. I'm always taking phone calls. I'm always happy to have a chat. So I don't. I don't really have boundaries. And I'm okay with that, though. Like, I kind of prefer life to be that way.

0:10:08 - (Natalie Moujalli): Yeah. It sounds like it feels good to you.

0:10:10 - (George John): Yeah. I don't want to feel like I'm working corporate all the time. Time. I hate that feeling of being stuck or Kind of, you know, you still.

0:10:17 - (Dodie Jay): Have though, like, you. You're not. You won't outstretch yourself. Sometimes I'll speak to you and say like, you're coming past Robins and you'll be like, I actually just need a timeout. Like, I just need some me time. Like, I think you're self aware enough to not let it overwhelm you. It's. It's never gotten to a point. It's yet to get to a point where you filled your plate up so much that you. Unable to juggle the fact that you have a household, a wife, two children, a business, staff members. Like, you've never filled your plate so much that I haven't seen it. That struggle to deliver in any aspects of your responsibilities.

0:10:48 - (Dodie Jay): No, I think you've been good to check yourself and give yourself enough grace.

0:10:52 - (Natalie Moujalli): I think it's really beautiful that you get each other like this. So have you always been able to support each other through your careers or where did this little bond start?

0:11:00 - (George John): I was actually closer to her sister, Robyn, because Robyn lives near me. Like, she's not too far off me. And I knew Robin years ago. Yeah, I couldn't, I want to say like 2018. Ish.

0:11:12 - (Dodie Jay): Yeah. She I'd fight with. Robyn's my sister. She's in the industry, so she's a caterer. But I'd fight with Robyn because she'd be like, you know our clients George and Alexia, and I'm like, I've never met these people. Robyn, I know you feel like they're your family, but they're actually not.

0:11:25 - (Natalie Moujalli): That's is not just the epitome of sisterhood.

0:11:28 - (Dodie Jay): Quite literally. Quite literally.

0:11:29 - (George John): Because of proximity of where we live, we see each other every single week.

0:11:33 - (Dodie Jay): Yeah.

0:11:33 - (Natalie Moujalli): Wow.

0:11:33 - (George John): So like I saw Robyn yesterday with Jodie. Like it's just normal after this.

0:11:38 - (Dodie Jay): Like I get my car washed across the road from their house while I'm waiting for someone to pop in.

0:11:42 - (George John): It's. It feels. Yeah, it's very odd to describe.

0:11:45 - (Dodie Jay): So that's how it started. We seen each other at a couple of work events. But then honestly, once you guys were going for a walk and my sister's husband was outside getting his Uber Eats order and they like crossed paths. Like it was just coincidental.

0:11:57 - (Natalie Moujalli): And then you've been able to manage to kind of support each other through your roles and cross refer even. Is that how it works?

0:12:04 - (George John): Cross referral? I find not so much, I guess because our booking processes are. It's boring to say, but like it's at different Time frames like. Like, to some retrospect, particularly also with Robyn, I guess.

0:12:15 - (Dodie Jay): Definitely.

0:12:16 - (George John): But when you work in this field, your time is only certain. It's only limited to, like, having relationships that can evolve during the weekday.

0:12:24 - (Dodie Jay): Yeah. Monday nights.

0:12:25 - (George John): So, like, Friday, even if I don't have work on a Friday, there's no chance I'm going out on a Friday night anymore, because Saturday I'm working, but I'll probably be working the Friday, which means even Thursdays I don't go out. So, like, there's Friday, Saturday, Sunday gone. You only see people if you're at work and they're at the wedding. And then after that, it's like, who's left? You know, our friends have.

0:12:45 - (George John): From high school, like, you know, lifelong friends are with their own families or, you know, at their 9 to 5 job.

0:12:51 - (Natalie Moujalli): Yeah.

0:12:51 - (George John): Whereas we're like, hey, on Monday, we have nothing.

0:12:54 - (Dodie Jay): Yeah. Like Monday, Monday, Funday.

0:12:57 - (Natalie Moujalli): Yeah.

0:12:57 - (George John): And then just, you know, as weeks go on and months go on and years go on, it's like you see each other so frequently that you start to bond. More of a family than a friendship.

0:13:05 - (Dodie Jay): Yeah.

0:13:06 - (George John): Because it's. It's bled into this whole world of, like, business and friendship and that when those two come together, I feel like your connection with people make them into a family unit for sure. Does that make sense?

0:13:18 - (Dodie Jay): I think, like, the common ground as well. Like, the reality was the friendship started, but then things would come up with work where it's like, I need advice from someone who understands my industry, can challenge me intellectually, can inspire me in what I'm doing. And obviously, people who work in similar roles in a similar industry can give me that. I feel like it started between. Because we got closer. I started building a shop.

0:13:41 - (Dodie Jay): My sister had launched her brand. She'd started a side company. Like, we were constantly bouncing off ideas and feeding off each other and inspiring. I say this all the time. I'm very blessed with my social circle. At any point in time, I can pick up the phone and turn to any of them for advice in different aspects of my life and know that I have the right people to help me. So I feel like that part of our relationship and sharing, for sure, work definitely escalated, like, the speed in which we all clicked.

0:14:09 - (George John): I'm sure many relationships in the industry are like this with, like. But yeah, the main thing that I've picked up on or noted down with big and small circle of friends is we never want to see each other make a mistake and we never want to see each other fall. And both are two different things. But we always want to. Like, we can almost foreshadow something. Like, we can see it happening, so we kind of will pick each other up or.

0:14:31 - (Natalie Moujalli): Well, you're protecting each other as well. And I think that that's really important to kind of sit with a little bit, because, you know, this podcast is about mental health and how we get through life. And one of the biggest and most important things that we need to have with us is a support network. And, you know, people who. Around you, who love you, support you, protect you, look out for you, and it seems as though you have that, and that's what help is, helping you guys carry through this, this career, because I'm sure it's very rewarding for you, but also very stressful.

0:15:04 - (Natalie Moujalli): What's one of the things that you would call each other to vent about or get support on that?

0:15:12 - (Dodie Jay): All of the above.

0:15:13 - (George John): Everything. It's almost. It's almost anything and everything that you think of, like, comes to your mind, really, to be very honest. But if you want to give me, like, if you want me to give a real example, I'm going to throw under the bus here, because I can't throw on ours. No. Well, Jodie was very, like, inactive on social media in the past, right? Like, let's say maybe two years ago, there was a stage where it was.

0:15:32 - (Dodie Jay): Like, a solid decade.

0:15:34 - (George John): And every time I saw her, she knew the conversation would come up where I'm like, dodie, come on, man. Like, what do you need? Do you need the content? I have the content. Do you need help? Like, you've got to be more active. Like, I know you're doing it. And the reason is because, as a friend, we all knew Dodie wasn't posting because she has anxiety to share. True or not, right?

0:15:53 - (Dodie Jay): You disable yourself.

0:15:54 - (George John): It's more like we're trying to push her to do it because we knew she had the means to do it, she had the capacity. But it's more just kind of like, as a friend, getting her into that uncomfortable zone to push.

0:16:03 - (Dodie Jay): I don't know.

0:16:04 - (George John): That's my one example.

0:16:04 - (Dodie Jay): Yeah, no, it's a good one. One thing I say that I'm grateful for all the time is that I have a room full of mates that if I say a joke that's not funny, no one will laugh, you know, Like, I don't have a group of people that are going to, like, you know, hype me up if it's not deserving and will hold me accountable. I think if you're Friends with someone, you have a responsibility to hold them accountable.

0:16:26 - (George John): Tanya. Tanya's like, she's so honest with us. I love it.

0:16:29 - (Dodie Jay): Ye. We all are. I feel like I had a conversation with you last year. I was like, oh, you dropped off.

0:16:34 - (George John): Yeah.

0:16:34 - (Dodie Jay): Like, when it came to online. But also, we'll watch each other make mistakes, do things. I'm constantly sending you guys ideas, things inspo, and be like, is this tacky? What do you think? Thoughts. And we're going to get grilled. But it's like, I come to this.

0:16:48 - (Natalie Moujalli): Group of creatives for that, for honest feedback. Right?

0:16:51 - (Dodie Jay): Yeah.

0:16:52 - (Natalie Moujalli): And that is really true friendship. It's, you know, iron sharpens iron. It's telling the truth. And what's really beautiful about hearing you both speak is that there would be no other motive to push your friend along other than to see them succeed. Like, whether or not Jodie is active. Jodie.

0:17:09 - (Dodie Jay): Jodie.

0:17:10 - (Natalie Moujalli): It's fine. Whether or not Jodie is active on social media.

0:17:13 - (George John): I love that. Can we keep the Jodie part in? Just leave it in. Don't edit that part out.

0:17:21 - (Natalie Moujalli): Jody. Dates.

0:17:22 - (Dodie Jay): It has to. You know, there's actually another hairstylist. I found her on Instagram. Jody Day. I don't want to shout her out here.

0:17:32 - (Natalie Moujalli): Whether or not.

0:17:35 - (George John): Don't look at me, George.

0:17:37 - (Dodie Jay): You're the worst. I'm taking a water break.

0:17:38 - (George John): Finally read a psychologist's mind.

0:17:40 - (Natalie Moujalli): I just realized this is bad. This is bad. I'm exposed. Whether or not Dodie is active on Instagram or not really has no impact on you. It's just you. You just desire to see her succeed for sure. You know, and that's. That's like friendship at its purest, I think.

0:17:58 - (George John): Yeah. We've just all bled into, like a. We're all too comfortable with each other.

0:18:01 - (Dodie Jay): Yeah. We're just a big. Just a big, happy family. It's nice. It's nice. It's a good clique and it's, you know, to be honest, in our industry, like, I've made some real life friends out of the industry. It's a beautiful industry. You know, every industry, I think, has good people in it. And if you're. I feel if you just put your best forward and you're authentic with people and you're good to people, naturally you align with the right people.

0:18:22 - (Dodie Jay): And we were fortunate enough to find it in the industry and. Yeah. In our lives in general, because I guess we all click on a much more personal level after work hours.

0:18:31 - (Natalie Moujalli): Yeah. What about what I love about you, Dodie, is that When I spoke to you and asked you to come on the podcast, you're so authentic. You're so honest. You were like, but what's it about? Like, because I'm. I'm. I'm through the Instagram, and I'm a bit confused and a bit lost. We need to get more vulnerable. We need to get more authentic. And I'm like, I haven't met you, but that's. I'm loving this.

0:18:52 - (Natalie Moujalli): You know, let's go.

0:18:53 - (Dodie Jay): No filter.

0:18:54 - (Natalie Moujalli): I'm sitting here going, you know, we're just going slowly. We're just massaging around the areas. And you're like, yeah, you kind of need to go a little hard.

0:19:01 - (Dodie Jay): Yeah. I was like, but what for?

0:19:03 - (George John): Yeah.

0:19:03 - (Natalie Moujalli): So I love that authenticity and that honesty. How do you balance your authenticity, like, in your role? You know, when someone asks you their advice on something, you know, does their hair look good? Is this style nice? Any type of advice, they ask you. There's your opinion, and then there's whatever the job needs.

0:19:24 - (Dodie Jay): I think I've gotten myself in trouble a fair bit, being too honest. I don't think I'm have much of a filter. I'm good. Like, I'm respectful, but I'm like, I'm honest. So I think I do struggle. And I definitely not have offended people, but have given people my insight where maybe they didn't need it. Yeah, they didn't need it, but. And I think that's just a part of my personality. You really get like me.

0:19:47 - (Natalie Moujalli): But I'd imagine that that probably attracts a certain clientele as well, because they probably appreciate that.

0:19:52 - (Dodie Jay): Yeah, I'm yet to meet a client who is so offended by my. They'll be like, oh, okay, cool.

0:19:57 - (Natalie Moujalli): That's honest.

0:19:58 - (Dodie Jay): Thanks. Yeah, definitely. So I'm grateful in the sense that, yeah, I haven't really offended anyone or I haven't crossed a personality type that was super offended by me. But a client recently said to me, she came in and she was talking about me, and she'd seen me in a public scenario. She's like, you're so different. You're so quiet. And I was like, oh, yeah. Like, I'm pretty introverted. And she's like, but I came in and you're so welcoming. And I felt like I really met you on my first appointment with you. And my response was sort of like, you came into my space and then paid me for my time.

0:20:28 - (Dodie Jay): Out of respect for you and, like, out of respect for you believing in me, I have an obligation to give you the most authentic Forward version of myself. Because you've come in wanting that. And if I want to get that out of you in this experience and be able to essentially make you feel better about yourself, that's why you're here. I need to. I need to meet you at that level, and I'm not going to unless I give that to you. Yeah, I just, you know, try and be myself, try and be nice, hopefully not offend too many people.

0:20:58 - (Natalie Moujalli): What about you, Jo? How do you stay authentic? Yeah. So I'd imagine people come in with their own vision of how they want to see these photo shoots take place and roll out. That might often conflict with your vision.

0:21:13 - (George John): I'm lucky because I meet couples quite a bit before their journey. So there's a lot of, like, pre consultations or communications. And I always remind couples when they first meet me, everything that's set at my table is of, like, full honesty. So I always tell them, take everything I say with a grain of salt, so don't take me too seriously. Because my opinion is just my opinion. But their opinions allow to be their opinion.

0:21:36 - (George John): My job is very aesthetical, so it's always talking about a final product. So I was looking at an image for a reference or certain things. So I'll use an example. It's a very silly one, but it's fresh in my mind. I had a bride that showed me a photo, what she wanted for her location. And I was like, yep, fantastic. What's plan B? She's like, no, no, no, I need this photo. And I'm like, I get that. What's plan B?

0:21:55 - (George John): Like, I've got you. I heard you, but we need a plan B. It's not gonna work. And I was like, also, that photo's taken, like, in winter, during sunset. It's not gonna look like this or look like this. And I pull up a gallery and just seeing her face, like, oh, I'm still gonna get it.

0:22:09 - (Natalie Moujalli): And I'm like, be deflated.

0:22:10 - (George John): I would love to, but I don't control the sun. So it's more about, on my end, educating in a nice way. And I say a lot nicer than what I just explained it. Trust me, it's more about, I don't know, having that discussion and communication and then them understanding where I'm at and where they're at. And just once you talk about expectations and spend the time to educate a client, you're kind of doing all the pre work to build a path for a successful outcome. I guess you could say I think.

0:22:36 - (Dodie Jay): Communication and education are Two really important things with any service based transaction.

0:22:41 - (Natalie Moujalli): Yeah. And like you're dealing with people's emotions and sometimes they're very heightened around that time. Do you see a lot of emotion behind the camera? Like you see people coming in feeling super stressed or super anxious all the time. You know, these milestone moments, like there would be a lot of emotion being presented.

0:23:01 - (George John): Yeah.

0:23:01 - (Natalie Moujalli): How do you cope with it?

0:23:02 - (George John): Every single weekend, every single client, without a doubt, the most level headed person has their head screwed on, gets thrown into a scenario that's so emotionally jarring that it's like it's going to take out the best and the worst of them all at the same time within a 12 hour frame.

0:23:19 - (Natalie Moujalli): It's like being exposed a little bit.

0:23:21 - (George John): Literally in front of everyone. No matter how many, how many times you can like be at a wedding, you realize that people are entering a room to strangers. It feels like when they're at their wedding, sometimes to some degree because it's, it's like a spotlight being shined on them the whole day.

0:23:36 - (Dodie Jay): Yeah.

0:23:36 - (George John): I try to find like some form of commonality with my clients or something of interest. Just that they can find something to bond, to, relate. Some brides might see a goofier side to me. Some might see a little bit more of a serious, structured side to me. And it's more about, you know, just making them feel comfortable. It's not so much of me thinking how do I control their emotion. It's more about how do I make them feel most comfortable throughout the whole.

0:23:58 - (Natalie Moujalli): Day and like safe enough to have those emotions.

0:24:00 - (George John): Yeah, for sure.

0:24:01 - (Natalie Moujalli): Yeah.

0:24:01 - (Dodie Jay): Yeah.

0:24:02 - (George John): I tell brides all the time, like some brides, I'm like, just give me that look, like just, just nod at me. I've got you like at the bridal table or something. Whatever you need, just let me know.

0:24:10 - (Dodie Jay): For your clients, for sure. Yeah. You've just got to, you've got to see it for what it is. I feel like I've learned so much about people, so much about cultures, so much about human behavior because I'm there on such a raw day. Like emotions are at their highest. I'm in your mum's cupboards. Like it's, it's so exposed. I, I see the realest versions. I, I hear the bickering, I hear the temper tantrums, I hear the moments. I'm there to witness the mum deal with the snap.

0:24:40 - (Dodie Jay): You see all of it and you don't, you don't see it with like judgment. It is what it is. It's a hard day. But you just, like, again, as we are coming into this space providing a service, you really, really remind yourself that these people, what they're going through is so much bigger than whatever you've got going on in your own life and just like having a lot of grace towards them. Yeah, it's high pressure.

0:25:00 - (Natalie Moujalli): It's high pressure and it's difficult dealing with the emotions of these people that you don't actually really know. So you're trying to manage. And I was saying earlier about hairdressers in particular, they are put in the position of a therapist, but without possibly the boundaries or the coping skills to manage. I've watched over decades, people confide in their hairdressers and their beauty therapists, and I watch them sometimes and I think, how are you going to manage this? You know, like, how do you cope with it? Do you get to debrief? Like, at least as a therapist, we get possibly supervision or we, we get to debrief or we get to learn how to set boundaries, healthy boundaries. But I think when it comes to the beauty industry, people underestimate how heavy the load can be for people when they are confiding in whoever's providing the service.

0:25:52 - (Dodie Jay): Yeah, usually when I finish work, I won't talk to anyone until I have a hot shower. You know, I'm not going to answer. And then after I have a hot shower, I'm like, okay, guys, I'm back, because I need. Honestly. But that's, that's the go. I know there are particular people I won't speak to in the morning because if they're too, like, hot.

0:26:09 - (George John): And my sister, don't say that. I'm like.

0:26:15 - (Dodie Jay): But, you know, like, it's someone who I can't control. She's a force, She's a mum, she runs a business, she's doing all the things. She's got a kid in primary school, a kid in high school. Like, she's, you know, by 8:00 in the morning, she wants to list to me all the things she's done with her day before 8:00. And you're like, I'm just, I'm trying to mentally prepare for the day. So, like, I know not to take that call.

0:26:33 - (George John): You will get there soon, my friend.

0:26:36 - (Dodie Jay): Because I'm just gonna enjoy the Zen that is my life right now. So, yeah, you learn, like, where your boundaries are. No, definitely, you have to in order to be able to cope with it all and be there for people. I've learned over time that I'm a better Support to my sister, my friends, my clients, my staff. If I make enough time to support myself first.

0:26:56 - (Natalie Moujalli): Very important to prioritize yourself and your needs before you can go and help other people with what they need.

0:27:03 - (Dodie Jay): Yeah, Yeah. I feel like everyone needs a. Like, I need a timeout.

0:27:05 - (George John): I don't need a timeout. No. I'm actually the opposite of a timeout. So, like, if I'm going through it, I need to, like, vocalize it more than.

0:27:16 - (Dodie Jay): So George will come over to Robin's on, like, Monday nights, family night.

0:27:19 - (George John): Like, if I finish work and, like.

0:27:20 - (Dodie Jay): I just need to, like, vent, and we'll. We're there for constructive. And he's like, no, no. I don't actually want to hear anything. I just want.

0:27:28 - (George John): Every time, like, between bright prep to church or church to location, I call my wife and I'm just, like, debriefing. Because I just, like, if I feel. I feel like if I vocalize it and let it out, it's almost like it's out of my brain. It's like that steam release.

0:27:40 - (Natalie Moujalli): So that's how you cope.

0:27:41 - (George John): I just verbalize someone, and it's like, kind of.

0:27:44 - (Dodie Jay): Whereas I'm the opposite, a little bit.

0:27:47 - (George John): I internalize. I mean, that's going to fester into, like, this crazy.

0:27:50 - (Dodie Jay): No, it's more just like, I just need to be done with it.

0:27:52 - (Natalie Moujalli): Yeah.

0:27:52 - (Dodie Jay): Because then once I vocalize, I think once I start to verbalize it, I'm actually, like, stirring the pot. It's when I think over it, and that's when I'll hide in my emotion. Whereas if I'm like, yeah, I can.

0:28:04 - (Natalie Moujalli): See everything and the circulating thoughts that get the better of you sometimes.

0:28:09 - (Dodie Jay): Yeah. I hope myself up. I don't need to hype myself up in the middle of the night.

0:28:16 - (Natalie Moujalli): I have a bit of a personal question for you.

0:28:18 - (George John): Go for it.

0:28:19 - (Natalie Moujalli): Does your job make you happy? Do you enjoy it?

0:28:22 - (George John): It does. It truly does. I feel like I'm lucky enough, and I'm fortunate in my lifetime, particularly at my age. I started my career when I was very young to find that happiness, and I always longed for it. There was a time in my life where I really wanted to. I didn't really feel like I was doing the right thing or going down the right path. Like, during the whole university phase of my life and stuff, it's my biggest blessing because truly, it doesn't feel like I'm working.

0:28:47 - (George John): Ultimately, being a part of people's special moments, not just their wedding days and connecting with people and, you know, catching them at that time of their life where there's so much joy. I think on a personal level, I put so much weight and emphasis on that, maybe from my life experiences, but maybe just in general, you know, like, I have this huge feeling and understanding and comprehension around the notion of time and how limited it is and how connected my job is with time.

0:29:16 - (George John): So rewarding people with a frozen moment of time gives me so much burn. Like, it gives me so much fuel every single weekend because you've just got to experience and do something for someone else.

0:29:28 - (Natalie Moujalli): Yeah, you're freezing a moment in time that's so beautiful.

0:29:30 - (George John): It's almost like it's a gift to give back to them that they can have for the rest of their life.

0:29:35 - (Natalie Moujalli): It's beautiful. Dodie, does your job make you happy?

0:29:39 - (Dodie Jay): I think, George, like, you know, for you, your gift to give people would be, like, that moment in time. For me, my gift to people was always building their esteem. Like, that was a big gift that I really proud myself on. Building people's esteem. I think, for me, do I love it? Of course. I think I'm very, very fortunate that I began a career because I enjoyed building people's esteem. But I think the job was very much the escape. That was what I did to keep myself busy.

0:30:07 - (Dodie Jay): Adhering to that and being disciplined in that has now allowed me to lead a life where I'm very flexible in my career choices. And I've actually created my dream role, my dream job. I. My clients. Like, I'm particular with all of it. It's at a point now where it's curated the bridal. Like, people like you have the hardest clients. Like, I have the best clients. I have the best clients. I have an amazing team. I have amazing clients. I enjoy what I do. I definitely loved the craft, but with the evolution of that, if I. If it weren't for the fact that I've tailored my career to be something that I also really, really, really love, you'd be tainted from loving the craft as much.

0:30:45 - (Dodie Jay): So. Yeah, I love the craft, but I definitely love the environment I've created for myself. And that does give me drive. Like, yeah, yeah, I'm happy as. That's good.

0:30:55 - (Natalie Moujalli): What advice would you give any aspiring hairdressers?

0:30:59 - (Dodie Jay): Aspiring hairdressers do something you love. That's for sure. Like you said, I guess we got to know you went to uni. I went to uni, too. You don't know my TM boyfriend, Cheney made a great friend decision. I didn't know. What did you study?

0:31:15 - (George John): Marketing. And hr.

0:31:17 - (Dodie Jay): Right. I studied teaching. Yeah, right.

0:31:19 - (George John): I knew that.

0:31:20 - (Dodie Jay): Yeah. Sorry. I'm sorry. It's because you put me on your podcast, you had to do a background check.

0:31:26 - (Natalie Moujalli): I studied psychology.

0:31:29 - (Dodie Jay): We can tell. Yeah. I think definitely pick something you love, because when you love it, the passion will be there and it's easy to find success in that. But also, to be honest, this morning I was having this conversation with my staff. I look back at the trajectory of how my career panned out, and I was always very passionate, but there definitely was a lot of passion that was in the service I provided people.

0:31:52 - (Dodie Jay): And after I scored my first job in retail when I was 18, I actually never applied for another job again. Since that first job, I have been poached my entire life. I don't have a resume. Like, I never. It was. I just worked so hard and put my head down. I never really looked left and right. I was just so headstrong in being the absolute best because I was hard on myself that it allowed me to excel and then fall into a role just because I'd built a skill set that made me useful.

0:32:21 - (George John): To be talented, mate.

0:32:23 - (Dodie Jay): Nah, just. Just driven. And like, my advice on that is, like, find something you're passionate in, but at the end of the day, there's the chance to become successful in anything if you're willing to make the sacrifice. Have the desire. Feed into it.

0:32:34 - (George John): For sure.

0:32:35 - (Dodie Jay): Yeah, feed it. Feed it and it will grow.

0:32:37 - (Natalie Moujalli): Feed it. I like that. What about you, George? What would be your advice to an aspiring photographer?

0:32:42 - (George John): Advice can go through so many different realms. I guess it depends on what someone's searching for. It comes to advice, but, you know, everyone's at different levels. I guess if you're at the level where you're fortunate enough to have a team that follows you like a shooter's, my number one advice would be to treat them well and just remember that they deserve that. Right. It's not like something that you need to give them. They deserve to be treated nicely and, you know, form the friendship with your team. Form the friendship. They deserve it back. And it's not just about monetary things. It's about training them, rewarding them. Take that time. It's so hard when you're a business owner to. To pull time away and meet up with your team outside of work.

0:33:15 - (George John): But there's so much advice that I could give, but ultimately it's just about. On a professional level, just really criticize yourself and work on your craft as much as possible. Most people do that to themselves enough already. On a daily basis. But, you know, it's good to always sit back and look where you're going because then you can kind of understand where the future will head.

0:33:34 - (Natalie Moujalli): Yeah. So professionally, really pay attention to where you can improve.

0:33:38 - (George John): Yeah.

0:33:38 - (Natalie Moujalli): But also what you're saying is to develop and create a positive and supportive culture with the people that you work with so that you can excel in your craft.

0:33:48 - (George John): It's just paramount.

0:33:49 - (Dodie Jay): Yeah, yeah. Nothing. Nothing comes easy.

0:33:52 - (Natalie Moujalli): Nothing comes easy.

0:33:53 - (Dodie Jay): Nothing comes easy. You know, you have to work harder at whatever it is if you want to be successful.

0:33:58 - (George John): It's just so easy in our world. No matter what's in the creative work, you know, wedding world specifically, it's so easy to kind of like push for numbers or, or push for a certain volume or. You know, so many people when I was starting up were like, it was a flex how many weddings they got a year. But to me that means nothing anymore. When I meet another photographer, I need to meet another hairdresser.

0:34:17 - (George John): It's not even how much they charge that's impressive anymore. It's more about where are they going with their craft and where are they taking their skill? Are they doing something new? Are they challenging themselves? Are their team happy? Are they happy? Are they a nice person?

0:34:29 - (Natalie Moujalli): Yeah.

0:34:30 - (George John): It's more about working inwards with the business rather than worrying what the public can say about your business.

0:34:36 - (Dodie Jay): Okay.

0:34:36 - (Natalie Moujalli): Which goes like, it's contrary to what you would think, right. You know, how many clients you have or how much you're charging. But what you're saying is what's really important is the environment that that person is in.

0:34:46 - (George John): A thousand percent generation before us, if you didn't have six figure followers, it was like, oh, you did.

0:34:50 - (Dodie Jay): It was a deal. But at the same time, I feel.

0:34:52 - (George John): Like now it's like it's not really there anymore. It doesn't matter. People only care if you're actually good at what you do.

0:34:58 - (Dodie Jay): 100. I also feel like a generation before our social media was in a very different phase of its development. So a lot of clout came with social following etc. But now, like we've established, if you want people to be real with you, you have to be real with them. You have to give authenticity. So if we're going to look at what people are looking at, it's how authentic are you? How are you showing up for yourself and your teams and your clients? How are you portraying that online?

0:35:21 - (Dodie Jay): Because the reality is no one actually cares if you have 200,000 followers on Instagram. They actually would prefer to watch your bloopers of something you mic'd up and put on TikTok to know that you're a real raw human who's just trying.

0:35:33 - (George John): To best, like, get on camera.

0:35:35 - (Dodie Jay): Yeah. Like, people relate to people and we're all humans. I know. Like, for me, I'm always reiterating to my stuff, like, Dodie J Isn't me anymore. Like, that's a business name. You guys all represent that brand. But the reality is the person behind it's just like another flawed human like the rest of us.

0:35:49 - (Natalie Moujalli): Yeah. And we're all struggling to find our way. Right. So I think that's a really beautiful message. Oh.

0:35:55 - (George John): Going through life for the first time.

0:35:57 - (Natalie Moujalli): Absolutely. And hopefully the last.

0:35:59 - (Dodie Jay): Yeah. Yeah.

0:36:00 - (Natalie Moujalli): Thank you so much for joining us and giving us a little bit of insight into your lives privately and professionally. Do you want to give us a little bit of a plug on how do people find you?

0:36:11 - (George John): Let's give out our mobile numbers.

0:36:13 - (Dodie Jay): Personal.

0:36:14 - (Natalie Moujalli): Well, George doesn't have boundaries, so.

0:36:16 - (Dodie Jay): I have boundaries.

0:36:18 - (George John): I'll share it. I don't mind.

0:36:19 - (Dodie Jay): Home address.

0:36:20 - (George John): Home address. Why not? Let's do it all.

0:36:23 - (Natalie Moujalli): So you can find George John Photography and Dodie J. Hair on Instagram. Just look them up and things. You. So much for joining us. We really appreciate you giving us our time.

0:36:33 - (George John): Honored to be here.

0:36:33 - (Dodie Jay): Happy to be here.

0:36:34 - (Natalie Moujalli): Thanks, guys.

0:36:35 - (Dodie Jay): Thank you.