The Impact of Forgiveness on Ourselves and Our Relationships

Key Takeaways:

• Forgiveness as a Choice: Leila advocates that forgiveness is a conscious decision to let go of anger and bitterness, promoting personal and communal healing.
• Community Support: Emphasizing the role of community, Leila describes how collective support can facilitate healing and reconnection, outstretching the isolation caused by grief.
• Strength in Vulnerability: Leila’s openness about her grief underscores the strength found in vulnerability, inviting others to embrace their pain as a path to healing.
• Building Legacy Through Forgiveness: Forgiveness not only transforms personal circumstances but also creates a lasting impact that can influence future generations.
• Spiritual and Emotional Connection: The episode highlights the intersection of mind, body, and spirit in the healing process, as demonstrated in Leila’s journey.

Notable Quotes:

• "Forgiveness is a sign of strength, not a sign of weakness."
• "Holding on to a grudge and anger is not worth it; life is too short."
• "Forgiveness is for the forgiver more than the forgiven."
• "Love is when you love someone with their imperfection."
• "Having an unforgiving heart is like drinking poison and hoping the other person will die."

Resources:

• Visit the i4give website to learn more about Leila’s advocacy and how you can get involved.
• Article written on the Abdallah family and i4give day
• Engage with the "i4give" initiatives on social media to stay updated on events and resources.

For more information on the Hills Sanctuary House visit our website https://hshl.org.au/
You and your mental health is important to us.
Please visit https://hshl.org.au/wp/help-resources/ for help and resources

Do subscribe to this podcast to get the latest episodes of Finding Sanctuary.

Follow us on
Facebook - Christ the Redeemer Maronite Catholic Parish of The Hills
Instagram - @hills_sanctuary_house
Blog - https://hshl.org.au/blog/

Transcript

0:00:00 - (Debbie Draybi): Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of Finding Sanctuary. I've taken the reins again from Nat, who apparently she wasn't impressed with hosting, but we're going to keep her going again. So I do have Nat with me today, but we've got a very special guest who I know needs no introduction in our community. Actually, not just the Maronite community, but across Australia and the globe. I've got Layla Abdallah, who's an incredible ambassador and founder of I Forgive.

0:00:28 - (Debbie Draybi): And we're going to be talking to Laila today, a bit about her story and her experience with forgiveness, thinking about when we explore forgiveness, the relationship with forgiveness and mental health and how it really does enable us to move forward. And for those of you who don't know Laila, which I'm sure that's very few people that don't, Layla experienced an incredible loss and tragedy of her children through a horrific accident.

0:00:53 - (Debbie Draybi): And it's incredible trauma that impacted her family in such a devastating way. And we're gonna talk a bit about that and explore her journey to forgiveness and what it's meant for her and her family in their healing journey. And of course, we've got Monsignor Shora with us. Good to have you back, Monts.

0:01:09 - (Monsignor Shora): Good to be here. Yes.

0:01:09 - (Debbie Draybi): Been on holiday, so he's nice and fresh, so we're gonna pick on him a bit more today, but yeah. Laila, thank you for joining us. It's just honestly an honour to have you with us and thank you for your generosity. I know you've had lots of these conversations, so we feel absolutely honored to have you join us today.

0:01:27 - (Leila Abdallah): Thank you, Debbie, for having me. I feel so honored to be here today. The cause is amazing and this parish is very close to my heart. And Monsignor, me and you have a very special relationship and I was so blessed to have you at my kids funeral, leading mass and doing an amazing homily. And I'm so happy to be next to Nat. She's one of my closest friends. She's been there for me during my time and we've been together during celebrations and happy times and we continue to be together.

0:02:00 - (Debbie Draybi): High five. Just got a high five in case anyone was noticing what that noise was. So you're surrounded by friends and community and I think that's been a really powerful message for us, watching you in your journey, the power of community and how that supported you. I'm wondering if you want to talk a bit about that and what's led.

0:02:20 - (Leila Abdallah): You here on the 1st of February, 2024 of my kids, Anthony, Angelina, Leana, and Siena, went for a walk to buy an ice cream along three of their cousins when a drunk and drunk driver ran over seven kids. Now, how can one car hit seven kids at once? Three of the kids passed immediately. Anthony, Angelina, and Sienna, along their beautiful cousin Veronique, While my daughter, Liana, Sherbet and Mabelle were injured.

0:02:50 - (Leila Abdallah): They've witnessed the trauma. And within 24 hours, I went back on the scene after praying, and I forgave the driver straight away. Now, at that moment, I believe it is the Holy Spirit that moved my lips. But when I asked Danny, were you surprised that I forgave the driver? He said to me, leila, I wasn't surprised. We've lived together for 15 years, and for 15 years, we were forgiving each other, forgiving our kids, forgiving our family, asking them for forgiveness, like every other family where we have our challenges, our ups and downs, where sometimes we can hurt them or vice versa.

0:03:30 - (Leila Abdallah): But for some reason, we have a rule, and it says, get over it. So no matter what we experience, we have to get over it straight away. And we don't let the sun sit on our problems. We fix it on the same day.

0:03:44 - (Debbie Draybi): So for you, you were quite overwhelmed and surprised. But for Danny, he wasn't because he knows you well and he sees that you're not new to forgiveness. It's your way of being. It's a very big part of your life.

0:03:57 - (Leila Abdallah): It is. Growing up, I saw my mom and my dad. They were my role model in forgiveness. They used to make us pray all the time. So I believe it is part of my upbringing. But in saying it as well, when Danny went, he got to the scene and he saw his kids in the mid horrific way. His immediate response was to surrender it all to God. He said, God, this is bigger than me. I surrender it all to you. And Danny is a kickboxer. And someone said to him, danny, the driver is there. Let's go get him.

0:04:31 - (Leila Abdallah): And Danny just ignored him and he focused on his kids at that time, which as well, I believe he was able to forgive straight away by not turning to the driver, focusing on his kids, and just surrendering it all to God.

0:04:48 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah, I'm just going to take a moment. You know, it's incredible, your story. You know, just hearing you reflect on it now and remember it. It's pretty hard.

0:05:02 - (Leila Abdallah): God doesn't give us anything we can't handle. It is hard. Grief is. Look, grief is not easy. It's something that stays with you for the rest of Your life. Every day, me and Danny wake and the first thing we do is we look at the sky and we say, good morning, Anthony, Angelina and Siena. And like I said to you behind the scene this morning, I was looking at my kids pictures, I was crying and I truly miss them.

0:05:33 - (Leila Abdallah): But our ability to forgive and the community support has allowed us to keep going forward and to create a legacy for my kids and not to give up and to keep going. I believe the power of forgiveness is what is keeping us going every day amongst our pain, the immense pain that we are going through.

0:05:58 - (Debbie Draybi): So for me, as I'm hearing you talk, I see this purpose that you've created from something so horrific, you know, this incredible, the worst tragedy possible for any parent, the worst nightmare for any parent. But for you and Danny, it's creating a path and meaning and purpose in your life that keeps you moving forward.

0:06:20 - (Leila Abdallah): When I forgave the driver, Danny and I just looked at it as really that was our only choice to keep going with what happened to our family. But the way the community responded to it was unbelievable. People were coming to us and saying, you're so strong. Some people were on the verge of committing suicide. They turned back to their family and. And they apologized to them. People wanted our faith families reconciled.

0:06:51 - (Leila Abdallah): So everywhere we were going, people were coming to us and talking about forgiveness. Because of the way people responded to forgiveness, it got even more highlighted the importance of forgiveness to Danny and myself. And then we decided to create a foundation and call it our forgive day. The minute we mentioned it to the premier, the way she responded was amazing. She said, make it happen. Straight away.

0:07:18 - (Leila Abdallah): We started forgive not knowing what we are doing. We just had to trust God in it. It's been amazing.

0:07:26 - (Natalie Moujalli): I think what you're saying, Leila, is that it sounds, I mean, I was a part, I'm a part of that community. And it sounds like, you know, humanity was so desperate for that message, like because it gained traction so quickly. So for you, it might have been the only way forward and the way that. The only way you knew how to move forward. But it's like whoever heard the message and it is a biblical message even, but humanity was desperate for it.

0:07:55 - (Natalie Moujalli): So all walks of life were running with it and it was speaking to everybody's heart and everybody wanted to get involved.

0:08:03 - (Monsignor Shora): Yeah, I remember, I think I used the word in the homily. You stunned. It was something needed, like you said, Nat. And because it was so needed and it's so unusual, people don't know how to come to this Place or decision to forgive. That when Lila said that that next day, it stunned even the reporters. They weren't thinking, this is. It snowballed. Because people, I think in a way, we sense we need that. We've heard this forgiven. We've heard we've got to forgive, or.

0:08:36 - (Natalie Moujalli): We'Re seeing it practically play out now.

0:08:38 - (Monsignor Shora): It play out now in horrific. After a horrific tragedy, but with negligence on someone's part, he's been forgiven.

0:08:45 - (Natalie Moujalli): And we're not even seeing it in a small, you know, like, you know, we. We theoretically see a message forgiveness. And then we go. We can see someone forgive someone, go, oh, that's nice. We can see that. But to forgive in such a drastic, life changing way, I don't think anyone could wrap their heads around it. And I think that's why it resonates still till today. It's huge.

0:09:13 - (Debbie Draybi): And your leadership in that space, you know, people coming to you, drawn to you, drawn to your example of true forgiveness is inspiring. And just seeing that you've now developed a whole community with I forgive.

0:09:29 - (Leila Abdallah): Thank you.

0:09:31 - (Natalie Moujalli): Leila, what are some of the struggles with forgiveness? Because I think a lot of us look at you and the example that you and Danny have set with your family and think, wow, I don't think I would be capable of that. So is it as straightforward as it looks? Because you make it look effortless. What are some of the challenges that you think we could face with forgiveness?

0:09:54 - (Leila Abdallah): Forgiveness is a constant challenge. Not everyone can forgive because when you forgive it actually you have to be stripped from your ego and your pride enable for you to forgive. And it is very challenging. And sometimes it is harder to forgive your brother or your husband or your family member and even yourself than it is to forgive a stranger. Because these people, they hurt you constantly. The first time, second time, and you think, how many times can I forgive the same mistake?

0:10:34 - (Leila Abdallah): This is very challenging.

0:10:37 - (Natalie Moujalli): And it cuts deeper because there's love there, you know. And so on the flip side of love can be deep hurt. So it is a bit harder to do. Do you see that, Monsignor? Sometimes, yeah, it does.

0:10:47 - (Monsignor Shora): Yeah. Most people feel hurt and anger mostly from people who they love. And they're expecting that love. And when they feel some sort of betrayal or hurt, they feel it more than, as Laila said, than with a stranger, so that it becomes harder to forgive them. That.

0:11:02 - (Natalie Moujalli): Do you see that a lot in the community, like families and friendships that stop talking, it feels like seemingly impossible to forgive each other and move forward?

0:11:12 - (Monsignor Shora): Yeah. See, sometimes when siblings have a fallout where they've grown up all their life together as a family and love. And then something happens. And, yeah, I see that. And then, of course, through my marriage counselling, years of doing marriage counselling, seeing unforgiveness between a husband and wife, where they've left the pain of the hurt just dominate and they're throwing it at each other.

0:11:35 - (Monsignor Shora): They don't know how to heal and to forgive, you know, and you just see the damage it does to them and even then to their children. And that's some of the often toughest areas. Like I said, to try to bring forgiveness or to bring the call of forgiveness in.

0:11:53 - (Debbie Draybi): So the people that we need to forgive the most are usually the ones closest to us. Particularly when there's a pattern of the same harm and the same mistakes. It's tricky to keep forgiving because it's not one off, is it?

0:12:08 - (Leila Abdallah): This is true. And especially forgiving ourselves. Sometimes you do something and you think, I know better. Why did I do that? But we are human. And for the rest of our life, we try to be. It's wrong to use the word perfect, but we try to be better. But we're always going to fall short in some area.

0:12:31 - (Debbie Draybi): So being able to. It sounds like forgiveness starts with self first and learning to forgive yourself. It's a lot harder than forgiving others, isn't it?

0:12:41 - (Leila Abdallah): It's very hard. Even now, sometimes I have to stop and remember the way I used to parent my kids. And I need to forgive myself for getting angry at my kids or yelling at them. But really, at that time, I didn't know better. So now I think I'm sure they have forgiven me and they are in the best place. So I try my best not to do the same mistake with the rest of my kids. So, for example, now Selena, she gets away with she.

0:13:16 - (Debbie Draybi): Wow, the rules have changed, haven't you?

0:13:18 - (Natalie Moujalli): She's such a good girl. Laila. I've watched Leila, you know, Selena might drop something on the floor and make a big mess. And, like, I'm sure all the mothers who are listening would be like, oh, my God, you've dropped that. I've just cleaned the floor. And Layla will get out her phone and start recording her and be like, you're so cute. Did you drop that? You know, like, it's okay, you know?

0:13:44 - (Debbie Draybi): And I'm like.

0:13:44 - (Natalie Moujalli): I'm looking at her like, the level of patience in this woman is something I've never experienced before.

0:13:51 - (Leila Abdallah): You made it sound so nice.

0:13:53 - (Natalie Moujalli): She drew with the texture she does.

0:13:55 - (Leila Abdallah): On the walls over my white curtains, my walls.

0:13:59 - (Natalie Moujalli): And she just takes video footage and goes, look what Selena did today. Look at her artwork.

0:14:03 - (Monsignor Shora): Oh, my gosh.

0:14:04 - (Leila Abdallah): She even did makeup for her baby sister. She drew on her baby sister. But for some reason, I can't get upset from her because I know she's exploring. Her intention is not to make a mess. Her intention is not to harm Mary. She's a kid. She is exploring. And if I show her love and patience as she gets older, she would be a loving person and a patient person. That's why even forgiveness, it's so important because it can affect generations.

0:14:38 - (Leila Abdallah): So through forgiveness, our kids now, they can forgive a lot of situations, whether it's bullying at school, no matter what they face, I feel like they've got an ability to forgive because it's been demonstrated to them and they live in a forgiving household.

0:14:56 - (Natalie Moujalli): And I think that the forgiveness has enabled so much joy. I've never seen anything like it. To have been through what the Abdullah family has been through and to be in their presence and witness the joy when there's a celebration or a birthday, like, I feel like that's a direct impact of the forgiveness.

0:15:18 - (Monsignor Shora): It's a fruit of it. Yeah.

0:15:20 - (Leila Abdallah): And the inner peace that comes with it.

0:15:23 - (Monsignor Shora): Because when there's unforgiveness, if we don't forgive, we stay stuck at the place of the pain. And that's not good for us mentally or spiritually or physically, you know, so. And forgiveness is, in a way, first to free the one who's been wounded, the one who's been hurt. You. You don't stay stuck or a victim to it, that you. You can rise above it, make a choice and to journey through it. It's not sometimes, you know, and I know Lila mentioned when we were talking before the words came out, and then I had to keep revisiting I forgive. And she said that when people were coming, then that made them even think deeper, more.

0:16:04 - (Monsignor Shora): So it's a journey of forgiveness and going through different stages to be able to be able to be freed and not stay stuck. A lot of people stay stuck and measure. They're still back there. So they're missing what's happening in the present. You know, you miss the fruit and the joy that can be happening now.

0:16:21 - (Debbie Draybi): Leila, I'm just wondering, in your experience with I Forgive for our listeners, those that are stuck in that place that Monsignor is talking about, stuck in their grief, stuck in their pain, and really overwhelmed and don't even know where to start in terms of how to even work towards that forgiveness? What would be some things you'd say to them that you think will help to get them ready and enable them to forgive?

0:16:48 - (Leila Abdallah): Forgiveness is a choice you make. It's a choice to let go of anger and bitterness. Some people, they struggle to forgive because if they don't forgive, they lose their identity and they find it more rewarding for them to be stuck in this stage because it brings so much attention to them and that becomes part of who they are. So I think the most important thing is we need to acknowledge the pain. Yes, I've lost my kids.

0:17:20 - (Leila Abdallah): Yes, that person hurt me. And then once you acknowledge it, then we need to accept it. We need to accept that my kids are not going to come back. I can't change back the situation. Once you accept it, you have two choices. Either to make the decision to forgive and then receive the benefit of forgiveness, or you can choose to be stuck in this situation and not to let go of the pain. It's so important to run the path.

0:17:51 - (Leila Abdallah): So once you forgive, it gives you that inner peace and it makes you a better person and it frees you from the anger and the bitterness and it allows you to keep going forward in your life. It affects generation, like I said, it will affect your kids and people who are around you and your community. That's why I strongly encourage people to take the initiative of forgiveness. Don't wait for the other person to apologize.

0:18:19 - (Leila Abdallah): You forgive them unconditionally. Not for them, it's for you. Because forgiveness is for the forgiver more than the forgiven.

0:18:28 - (Natalie Moujalli): We were talking earlier about how important honest and open communication is to forgiveness. When you were talking about acknowledging and accepting, part of that process would be to have honest and open communication with people so that you're not holding and harbouring those feelings towards them. How important do you think that is to that process?

0:18:52 - (Leila Abdallah): Communication is so important. Letting your feelings out, expressing how you feel and there's a way of speaking first, stick to the facts that happen and then how it made you feel and always try to find the solution after how you guys can move forward with it.

0:19:12 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah. So really, what you were saying before, firstly that acknowledgement and then that acceptance. And part of the acceptance is knowing that there's an event, there's an experience, but there's an emotion attached to it, a feeling attached to it and being able to recognize what that is. I think some people get stuck there. They harbour whatever the event is and they rerun it in their mind and they're so disconnected with how it makes them feel.

0:19:37 - (Leila Abdallah): It's true. Even the power of words in our life is so important. So if you say I forgive you, or if you say I am a forgiving person, you would become that person. And a lot of the forgiveness as well. Now, looking back at it, like I said, we used to go to Monsignor's Parish, and a lot of time during Mass, we will be talking about forgiveness and praying forgiveness, which is manifesting forgiveness in our life.

0:20:10 - (Leila Abdallah): And little do you know that these words get stuck in your subconscious mind. And when you are facing some tough times, you go back to these words because they become part of, again, who you are and your identity.

0:20:25 - (Debbie Draybi): It explains so much about what you said earlier. Danny wasn't surprised that you forgave because it was very much a part of you and your way of being and living. And it's not something that you suddenly thought of doing. You've always been doing it before.

0:20:40 - (Leila Abdallah): It's true.

0:20:40 - (Debbie Draybi): And in a way, you were prepared for it.

0:20:42 - (Leila Abdallah): We all know the bigger the family is, the more problems you face. And every family have problems. And life is short. We don't know when it's going to be our last day or their last day or their last hour on this earth. That's why it's so important to always be at peace. And how do we be at peace is by forgiving that person and the circumstances and whatever face our life, it's not worth it. Holding on to grudge and anger.

0:21:15 - (Leila Abdallah): Life is too short. Just love unconditionally and forgive unconditionally.

0:21:22 - (Debbie Draybi): Yes. I think it's something definitely for our community. We do have big families, and big families often come with complicated dynamics and being able to embrace that and see it as a positive thing, because you're right, we can get caught up in the petty arguments and the things that get in the way of love and connection. And that's been a big theme for us in this podcast around how do we build connections? Because there's a lot of things that disconnect us as a community, and I think you've been an incredible example of that for us.

0:21:56 - (Leila Abdallah): Thank you.

0:21:58 - (Natalie Moujalli): I think, Leila, you represent connection as well, like the way you dealt with the tragedy and the way you spread the message. You were always bringing the community together. You were always connecting people. Come, let's pray. Come, let's do this. So that connection, I think, is very much just a part of who you are also, because you're always like, the more the merrier. Let's go. Let's get together.

0:22:22 - (Natalie Moujalli): Where Two or three of us are gathered, you know, God is there and you're always bringing together. So I think connection is very important to you also.

0:22:31 - (Leila Abdallah): It's very important and bringing everyone together and uniting everyone. It is part of, would you say.

0:22:38 - (Natalie Moujalli): It'S part of healing as well?

0:22:41 - (Leila Abdallah): To be honest, the community has played a massive part in my healing. For example, me and Nat, we used to be up some nights till 1am where I just talk about my kids and talk about my feeling. And she would be there just listening to me calmly. Whenever my kids had their birthdays, you'd see the whole community. They come together, they bring a cake to my kids, presents. Even during COVID Nat would every day drop off to my house a freshly squeezed juice and a coffee while I was pregnant. And she had no idea, no idea that she was pregnant looking after me.

0:23:26 - (Leila Abdallah): I couldn't cook for a long time, so the community were cooking for me. I couldn't focus on school, so they as well used to take my kids to school. They have played a massive part on my journey of grieving and healing, and I am blessed.

0:23:43 - (Natalie Moujalli): They played a massive part because you allowed them to as well, though, because you could have shut everyone out. Actually, probably most of us would have shut everyone out. But you embraced it and you welcomed it because you knew that you were making a difference in their lives, my life as well as everyone else's life. So I think that as much as the community played a really big part, you played a big part in accepting it, encouraging it, and really embracing it.

0:24:10 - (Debbie Draybi): I think that's been a big thing for us around. Often we send out messages to our listeners who are very isolated and who suffer in silence. And when they have tragedies, they do isolate themselves. And that does happen. And for us, it's around that connecting with our listeners who are alive, who don't have those connections. What's something that you know a message for them around reaching out because you can see and you demonstrate the power of community connections. And what would you say to them?

0:24:41 - (Leila Abdallah): I think I'm gonna stick up for that person who is isolated. I want to tell them that grief can paralyze people. And really sometimes I was that person who couldn't speak to someone or reach out to someone. And this is where the community come along and they help that person to get out of their isolation or their pain by reaching out a hand to that person and saying, you're not alone, I'm here for you.

0:25:17 - (Leila Abdallah): For example, like when we lost the kids, a lot of people didn't know how to deal with the situation. The best thing people can do. My advice to them is be next to that person who's isolated. Give them a chance to speak. When they speak to you, and they trust you, I think the other person as well have a responsibility to be able to hold that trust and not to take it for granted.

0:25:46 - (Natalie Moujalli): Yeah, I think so.

0:25:55 - (Debbie Draybi): So, Leila, as we're talking, you know, I'm hearing that sometimes there is that challenge of wanting to be alone and isolating, but then also needing that human connection, how to find that balance, you know, for people who experience both. And it's a bit of a tug of war of which one do I need right now?

0:26:17 - (Leila Abdallah): The pain can be very strong, sometimes stronger than you and can paralyzes you. There is times where I just wanted to be in my bed, crying, looking at pictures of my kids. And today was one of those days where all what I did was watching at videos of our family, how we were before the accident, happy, laughing, how Angelina and Siena used to always hug Liana. And my heart was breaking for my daughter.

0:26:49 - (Leila Abdallah): And I was just crying. I didn't want to see anyone. I didn't want to speak to anyone. And actually, Natalie called me, and then I picked up the phone, and she said to me, are you okay? And I couldn't even speak. So she said to me, you're crying? And I said, yes. And she said to me, I'm coming to see you. I'm dropping you a coffee. And she came in and she was there for me. So sometimes if that person is going through that pain, this is where it's important not to take it personal, to understand that that's because of their own pain and what they've been through. And this is where you can reach out to them, be there for them, listen to their pain.

0:27:33 - (Leila Abdallah): Just be there for them and listen to them. That's all what they need at that time. And once they open up to you, it's so important just to provide a safe space. Exactly. And to be able to build a.

0:27:48 - (Debbie Draybi): Trust in between them and start finishing each other's sentences clearly. You know, I think both of you, watching you together, you see the power of the bond and the connection that Tom Shaw has developed, you know, from this tragedy. For people out there trying to reach out to someone that they know is in pain, what I'm hearing is a message. Keep trying. Even if they don't answer the phone one day, try again the next day, drop off coffees, you know, thinking about those bids for connection and those Small little gestures can be so powerful.

0:28:25 - (Leila Abdallah): Even at my kids birthdays, I remember I just walked to my front door and I see flowers thinking of you and just knowing that someone is thinking of me, it just gives you a bit of peace and that comfort that I'm not alone. People are thinking of me, people are understanding me. And it just keeps you going. In life, I believe understanding is so important. Life can be challenging at times. And sometimes when people act, it's coming from their inner self and doesn't mean necessarily it's because of something we did. So again, back to not to take it personally.

0:29:11 - (Debbie Draybi): So Leila, as we're talking and exploring after a big tragedy in the way that you've experienced, there's life before it, as you mentioned, and then life after it. And I'm wondering, you know, how you've navigated life after it. You know, how have you manage the everyday problems that you had before and how they look now. And I wonder whether you wanted to share a little bit about that.

0:29:35 - (Leila Abdallah): Marriage is hard enough, and then when you mix it with grief, it becomes even harder. I remember at one stage, Danny and I were having a lot of misunderstanding and we needed to see someone, a third party, to come in between me and Danny and try and help us. And I remember we reached out to Monsignor Shorah because we love him and he is a very close person to us. And Danny and I went there and we started. Danny did this and Leila did that.

0:30:08 - (Leila Abdallah): And Monsignor stopped and he asked me, did you have this problem before your kids passed away? And Danny and I looked at each other and we said yes. How did you know? He said to us, because a lot of your problems are the same as before. You experience a tragedy, but what changes is you don't have the same tolerance. That's why a lot of marriage ended up breaking up, which is true. So it made it clear to us that there's no excuse for our behavior.

0:30:44 - (Leila Abdallah): We can't use an excuse that our Anthony, Angelina and Sienna passed away. That's why we are behaving in a certain way. In a way it held us accountable of what we do and made us acknowledge our weakness. And we wanted to change and to become better people, even more pure, to carry the message of forgiveness and to fight for our marriage and to love each other unconditionally. And we learn to look at each other in eyes of empathy and compassion.

0:31:15 - (Leila Abdallah): So whenever Danny is speaking, I learn to be quiet, listen to his pain, to take it personally and stop and think if this is my son Anthony, who is feeling upset or angry. How will I deal with it? And then it changes my perspective. And I learned to love Danny through our issues and through his weakness, and he learned the same. And love is when you love someone with their imperfection, through their ups and downs. And I believe that advice was amazing and it kept us going and it brought the best out of us.

0:31:55 - (Leila Abdallah): Very wise man, Monsignor. I love you.

0:31:57 - (Monsignor Shora): There's a lot of people sharing, being honest with me. Yes. So, yeah. Yeah.

0:32:02 - (Natalie Moujalli): I think it means that you're not a victim to your circumstances. I think it means that you're accountable for your behaviour and that you have been through a very unimaginable tragedy. But you hold yourself to these high expectations where you're like, if I was like this before and I'm like this now, there's something that I need to work on or we need to work on in our marriage and we're not a victim to our experiences.

0:32:29 - (Leila Abdallah): I love tough love.

0:32:31 - (Natalie Moujalli): You do.

0:32:32 - (Leila Abdallah): And honestly love to give tough love also. And honesty.

0:32:38 - (Monsignor Shora): Honesty.

0:32:41 - (Debbie Draybi): And just as we're wrapping up, I'm thinking about, you know, your journey with I Forgive and really how you started it. What, you know, what are the first steps that you've taken and what's motivated you to build this incredible movement?

0:32:55 - (Leila Abdallah): As I mentioned before, the way people reacted to forgiveness, that was what inspired us to start a foundation and call it I Forgive Day. It is on the 1st of February of every year. It's a day where we encourage people to search their heart, find someone to forgive and let go of the anger and resentment.

0:33:23 - (Debbie Draybi): So people want to get involved in I Forgive. What are some of the things that they can do? Because it's an incredible message and it's a wonderful movement. What are some of the things that we can do to encourage the community to get involved? What's the first steps they can take?

0:33:38 - (Leila Abdallah): If anyone would like to volunteer and help us with the I Forgive foundation, please feel free to reach out to myself or go Visit our website, www.inleila.

0:33:56 - (Debbie Draybi): Just as we're finishing up, I'm wondering if there's any important messages, key messages that you've left out that you want to make sure that you know the community, hear and remember.

0:34:08 - (Leila Abdallah): I want to encourage people to practice forgiveness every day, to be the initiative in forgiveness. Don't wait for the other person to apologize. You forgive them unconditionally for yourself more than the other person. There's power in forgiveness, there's freedom in forgiveness. Forgiveness is a sign of Strength, not a sign of weakness. Forgiveness will allow you to have an inner peace and will make you a leader in your own circumstances and it can affect generations to come.

0:34:42 - (Leila Abdallah): So having unforgiving heart is like drinking poison and helping the other person to die. So just be forgiving and leave a good legacy for your kids. Just build relationship by forgiving.

0:34:58 - (Debbie Draybi): Thank you for your wisdom. I think it's just been an incredible conversation. What really stands out for me is your humility and your openness and your vulnerability and your willingness to share your story and to help and guide. And you're an incredible leader. And we're honestly blessed to have you with us. And it's just been a fantastic, incredible experience for me. So I really want to take this opportunity to thank you, but also to honor and respect your grief. You know, it's not easy.

0:35:28 - (Debbie Draybi): You had a really tough day today, but you still showed up. And I think it's an incredible message for our community. And with your leadership and your guidance, that is. It's tough, but you do it anyway. So thank you.

0:35:40 - (Leila Abdallah): Thank you so much for having us.

0:35:42 - (Debbie Draybi): And Monsignor and Natalie, I'm wondering whether you had any parting wisdom or any key messages that you'd like to share with our listeners as we wrap up this session.

0:35:52 - (Monsignor Shora): Yeah, I'd like to just express the gratitude to Layla because she said it was a gift to be able to forgive, and then she kept responding to that gift. She could have changed, you know, more and more, as it said, but she stayed on the path of responding to that gift and that gift that showed that forgive and how everyone came together, showed that that forgiveness was able to build community that brought so many people, even of different faiths, together in communion. You connected.

0:36:27 - (Monsignor Shora): So it shows the power of forgiveness to do that. So you and Danny, being wonderful ambassadors of that, you stayed faithful to that gift that was given you. And you. You didn't turn away. You turned back from it. Even in the hardships, you kept going. So I'd just like to thank you for that. And we're very blessed that we've got this example that can keep reminding people to reach out for it and, you know, to not stay stuck, to reach out with forgiveness.

0:36:55 - (Monsignor Shora): So thank you.

0:36:56 - (Leila Abdallah): Thank you.

0:36:57 - (Debbie Draybi): And Natalie, I know this is a special conversation for you. I know the incredible bond that you share with Leila, and I wondered whether you had anything that you'd like to leave us with.

0:37:06 - (Natalie Moujalli): So many things, but I'll keep it brief. I think that you are an incredible example of seeing the path, and I know that you'll continue to do that. And, you know, even just for myself personally, you opened my eyes to a mind, body, soul connection. You know, psychology is so important. I'm a therapist and I can see the massive impact and role that plays in people's lives to understand how they feel and the way they feel and why they feel a certain way and why they behave a certain way.

0:37:38 - (Natalie Moujalli): But you've exposed me to. And your example through your family has exposed me to the huge role that spirituality can also play in healing. And I'm grateful for that and I thank you for that and just honoured to be a part of it all.

0:37:55 - (Debbie Draybi): And thank you for inviting us into your home and into your family and into your world and into your grief. I think it's just been an incredible, powerful message for all our listeners. Invite each other in, because it's our shared human suffering that brings us together and we can heal together as a community. And I think you've been an incredible example of that in so many ways. So God bless you and thank you for being with us.

0:38:21 - (Leila Abdallah): Thank you for having me.