Overall Well-Being from a Cross-Cultural Perspective - Mental Health Series Pt2

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Key Takeaways:

• Integration of Faith and Psychology: Faith-based psychological services often provide a greater strength or recovery from traumas, as faith can play a crucial role in mental health support.
• Challenges in Cross-Cultural Mental Health: Confidentiality, community engagement, and managing shame are significant challenges faced in cross-cultural counselling.
• Client-Centered Approach: Effective counselling requires an understanding of a client’s cultural and faith background, with a focus on letting clients lead the conversation about their needs.
• Innovative Community Projects: Initiatives like the "Friends of Friends" project illustrate successful cross-cultural mental health strategies tailored to community needs.
• Importance of Confidentiality: Ensuring client confidentiality is essential, especially in tight-knit communities where maintaining privacy can be challenging.

Notable Quotes:

1. Judy Saba: "Our community can be so supportive, but it can be so judgmental."
2. Monsignor Shora: "Psychological services that do have a faith base statistically show greater strength in recovery from different traumas and issues."
3. Judy Saba: "We didn't know it all either, so we reached out for expertise outside to us and were constantly being supervised around this work."
4. Eddie Reaiche: "It's that whole person centred thing, isn't it? The client knows the answers. We just need to help them find it."
5. Judy Saba: "I truly believe that people come through us, we don't do anything for them. They do it for themselves. We just facilitate and journey with them."

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Transcript

0:00:00 - (Debbie Draybi): Warning. This episode contains confronting topics and issues. If you need help, please contact beyond Lu. For more information and resources, please visit our website hshl.org dot au dot. Welcome to finding Sanctuary. Our shared conversations into how we think and feel and how we find peace and comfort in daily life. We get together with experts to chat about all things mental health, getting insights and understanding on the struggles of life.

0:00:34 - (Debbie Draybi): My name is Debbie Draby and I'm a psychologist and a proud maronite woman and a mother of three children. And I'm passionate about bringing people together to share their stories, to support each other through life and all its beauty and all its pain. I look forward to hearing from you in this podcast series as we engage in conversations around our shared experiences as a community. We love to hear what you think of the podcast, so please subscribe, share like and comment wherever you get your podcasts.

0:01:07 - (Eddie Reaiche): Hi everyone, and welcome to another riveting session of finding sanctuary. You're not hearing things. I'm not Debbie. I'm Eddie and I've been asked to be host to give Debbie a bit of a break. So for the one session, you just have to put up with me. And with me, I've got Monsignor Shora and right now I feel like a year ten student who's talking to his principal and so I'm freaking out just a little bit.

0:01:35 - (Eddie Reaiche): So I'll just ask you a couple of simple questions, monsignor, and go by your guidance as well. As well. I'm with royalty when it comes to cross cultural counselling services. Her name's Judy Saba and it's my privilege to welcome her. And she comes with a plethora of experience in the cross cultural space. It includes a 2010 Churchill Fellow, a fellow of the Royal Society of Arts from the UK. She's a cross cultural psychologist, which I have to say, really slow.

0:02:10 - (Eddie Reaiche): She's an applied diversity trainer, she's an adjunct fellow of Western Sydney University and I feel like I should know what an adjunct fellow is. And she's also got diversity of thought, roundtable, facilitator. I kind of think of the Knights of the Round table. That's the image that I get in my. I'm not sure if that's what it is. And she's the director of Interact Australasia. So Judy, welcome to our podcast and I wonder if you can say a couple of things about yourself.

0:02:39 - (Judy Saba): Wow. I don't even know. I don't even recognise that person. Eddie, look, it's just so lovely to be here and to have my first go at being a part of something that seems like it's been going for a while and is really reaching out to community, and that's really, really important. I guess my journey started in this space when I realised very early, when I was studying psychology back in the late seventies, early eighties, and, you know, I was doing a lot of stuff at Sydney Uni and doing all of the research and learning about assessments. And I would go home and do it on my family, relatives and friends and they all ended up being bipolar.

0:03:20 - (Judy Saba): And I thought, there's something going on here with the way that we're assessing and the way psychology was not kind of meeting the needs of diverse communities and people who had different centres of attention, different schemes that they valued. And so it really set me off on a path of really exploring, what does it mean if you see the world in a different way and if life happens to you in a different way?

0:03:46 - (Judy Saba): How do we fit people into a box? That's called psychology. So for me it was about how does psychology reach out, not to people, and adapt to people? And that started me on a journey of really exploring whether anyone else thought like that, or whether I was just some person who just wasn't getting psychology in the mainstream way. And I feel really privileged because as part of that learning, I met a lot of incredible people along the way, including people like doctor Anthony Marcella, who was leading in the US around cross cultural psychology.

0:04:18 - (Judy Saba): His story is interesting. He went and did his research with the Ebon tribe in Africa and did the paranoid schizophrenic assessment on all of them. And the whole tribe was schizophrenic. And, you know, when he taught me about this, he said it was because they were operating from a spirituality framework. They believed when someone spoke to them, they listened to the gods when they heard them. And so it got me thinking about our faith and our culture.

0:04:46 - (Judy Saba): And, you know, the many times I would hear my grandmother and mother and father say things like, it's all in God's hands. If someone was really sick, they would say, we'll pray for them. And so this notion of mental health back then, in my experience, and it is only in my experience and the people around me, was that there was no real kind of reaching out to mental health support or for mental health support, you would go to your priest because there was a level of not wanting to engage in shame and fear. And I think one of the things we don't talk about a lot is shame and shame as it sits with guilt and grief and I think there seemed to be some shame to go to Hakim and Nafsene, you know, a doctor of the mind who would go to someone who's going to doctor their mind.

0:05:34 - (Judy Saba): So even the language was not enticing for communities to reach out. And, you know, as part of that journey and part of the work that was happening, I did come across Monsignor Shora. We met many, many moons ago when you were starting your journey. And we both did some work at St. Mel's School at Campsie. And we tossed around ideas back then. And then I came across Monsignor again when he was doing my marriage prep in 1995.

0:06:01 - (Judy Saba): And at that stage, I'd already started to do some counselling with the church. And it's funny, I think about this and I think, you know, we all start from humble beginnings. And I've stepped in my parents footsteps there because the very first experience of counselling was literally at the bishop's house, at the residence. And it was just sort of, you know, we'd move the car out and put the table in and we'd work out of the garage. And I know that sounds very unrealistic.

0:06:25 - (Judy Saba): Our community were coming to the bishop and to the priest to talk about their issues. And the bishop at the time had an awareness that maybe there were other people that they needed to talk to. And because I was part of the community, it was an easy transition. And we had, you know, some real leaders in this space, you know, Father Michael K. Roos, Monsignor Shora. We had Father Takeshi, who in Melbourne was sort of starting to do work in this space.

0:06:50 - (Judy Saba): And it just became a no brainer. And what started out as being one or two people ended up being a stream of referrals that started, started to come. But then, you know, Monsignor Shiro did my marriage prep, and we had a conversation about, well, there were things I wanted to talk about that I didn't want to talk to a priest about and how do we do that? And then we started a really robust marriage prep program which involved community priests and other medical specialists.

0:07:17 - (Judy Saba): So these sorts of ways of listening to the community and hearing the community. And then that led to the opportunity to be part of an amazing team of people who were considering putting together together a counselling service within the church. And, you know, I mean, Andrew Batruni has recorded this in his second book on Lebanese in Australia. He asked me to tell this story, and I did with great love and respect for the team.

0:07:42 - (Judy Saba): You know, basically it started out with us really having to listen to what the community wanted. And we had some very difficult experiences back then. You know, we had a number of suicides that had occurred within our young men. And, you know, one particular young man, his friendship group, were so devastated by this that they were expressing their grief as anger and as frustration and as rejection of everything they believed.

0:08:07 - (Judy Saba): And they came, I remember, to Monsignor, and then ultimately, with us included, and we got the opportunity to talk through what that meant for them. They all had a very, very resounding, similar response, and that is that most young men are not going to go to a counsellor. So we had to work with them on. Well, what did that mean? And so we literally workshopped the community, we workshopped the youth, and we said, who would you go to? And unequivocally, it was to their friends.

0:08:32 - (Judy Saba): That's how our friends are Friends project started. And it was with people like Ronnie K. Roos, Natalie, Debbie, Lisa, you know, father Jeffrey, Monsignor, Shora. We had this great team that just came together and really galvanised around that. And we knew that we didn't know it all either. So we reached out for expertise outside to us, and we were constantly being supervised around this work. So that's one of the projects. The Friends of Friends project was probably something that I think I'd like to have it as part of my epitaph.

0:09:02 - (Judy Saba): You know, she was one of the friends of friends because it really was groundbreaking, and it was the very first cross cultural suicide prevention program. And it was just normal people that came in. We trained up as volunteers, and they became the mentors for young people at risk. Yeah. So that's in a nutshell. But there's so much more in that.

0:09:23 - (Eddie Reaiche): That's a big nutshell, Judy. It's a huge nutshell.

0:09:26 - (Judy Saba): Sorry. It was a whole pact.

0:09:29 - (Eddie Reaiche): Do you know, for a long time, I think spirituality and psychology never met in the middle anywhere. And I think just hearing about the groundbreaking work where we actually implemented a fusion of spirituality and psychology, I think is something that would have been an advancement back then. Monsignor were part of that. So do you want to talk a little bit about that?

0:09:52 - (Monsignor Shora): Yeah. Well, I actually remember when we did start to connect with Judy, and I remember we connected with a professor from one of the universities. He said to us, when he saw our service and what we're trying to develop, he said, psychological services that do have a faith base, statistically, it was shown that it gives us greater strength or recovery from different traumas and issues, that it's a great, positive when that spirituality is there, that people have got a faith base and there's that good psychological support with it that he said. And I've always found that through Judy and working with Ronnie and other psychologists, I've actually learnt a little bit of the skill of some of the counselling and some of the tools, and that with faith has led me to be able to help so many people.

0:10:40 - (Monsignor Shora): And something that Judy alluded to when, you know, people would say, who, me? I'm going to go to a psychologist. And the shame around that. So what we used to do is we had our counselling offices just around the corner from where our priest's office was, so that we'd say, oh, look, so and so they're working with the church. So we gave the idea. And then for anyone who was really edgy, I would actually sit with Judy or the psychologist on the first session so that we would transition them over to trust. They built up that trust with the psychologist and then they knew they could come back and talk to us. If anything, you want to talk again to us, you know, you're very welcome. Make a time.

0:11:18 - (Monsignor Shora): But we had to actually bridge people over for the specialist help that they would need, that I couldn't do and that they actually needed, with sometimes some serious emotional traumas that need specialist work. And then that led sometimes to us doing joint counselling sessions together with the one person or with a couple and having two heads working together. Actually, Judy could see things that I couldn't see, I missed, and I'd pick up things that while she was interacting, I'd pick up things.

0:11:51 - (Monsignor Shora): So I don't know if too many psychological services had actually that sort of model. There were things like that that we adapted to actually suit our community that were needing psychological services but were, if you just refer to, say, look, you need to go and see a psychologist, they weren't going to do it, and they'd think you're fobbing them off, you didn't care. But when we had the psychologist office next to us, and then you could lead, say, look, let's go over, we'll talk, we'll make a time.

0:12:21 - (Monsignor Shora): Would you like me to come to you with the. I'll come with you. The first session, be with you. And after a while, people just when they knew they were in the same sort of centre and you would say, they work with us, it gave them that calm, oh, they're working with the priest, so that must be all right. That was something that we had to do that was cross cultural.

0:12:40 - (Eddie Reaiche): I understand exactly what you're saying, because in my own practice, when I work at St. Joseph's, I have the same thing. When people come in, first timers, they'll sit there and they'll say, I'm only here because this is part of the church, and I'm only here because we're sitting literally under the church. And they said that gave them a sense of security and warmth, that we're in line with what's going on because we weren't going to judge them.

0:13:05 - (Eddie Reaiche): So I wonder, Judy, have you come across any challenges, your work?

0:13:09 - (Judy Saba): It's interesting you ask about the challenges because I think I've probably got a litany of about 300, but I'll go for the top two. You know, I think one of the challenges about being in a faith based process, and there were challenges, there was because we were dealing with a community that truly believed that God would look after them. And that was all our belief. And I think I got into trouble a few times because, you know, I would often say to some of our, particularly the couples, I'd say, well, you know, I totally believe God is looking after you, but can we give him a hand?

0:13:40 - (Judy Saba): Here are some things you might need to do so that God can go and work with someone else for a little bit while you're actually taking some lived responsibility for that. But I think one of the things that has really struck me over the years with the challenges has been the integration of faith. And I know throughout the time that I was doing the work with the diocese, which was over a good 25 years, I also had parallel work while I was working in the health space. We actually rewrote a religious effectiveness as a psychological assessment because there's religious belief, beliefs that are absolutely fulfilling and life giving, and there are those that are harmful.

0:14:17 - (Judy Saba): To give you an example, if someone says God's telling them to shoot 16 people, we know that that's not a healthy religiosity. But when someone says, you know, when I pray, it brings me comfort. And to work with that is so important. So we used to build into any strategies that we would work with, and we'd let the client take the lead. We'd let the person take the lead. I think one of the biggest risks in psychology, and, you know, and this is with all due respect to the amazing psychology psychologists out there, is that we think we have some of the answers sometimes, and we forget that people have a whole ecosystem of people that they go to, and psychologists are just one in that ecosystem. And so really listening and following a client's lead hearing, where they draw their strength from hearing the people they go to in the first instance, when they need to talk or share or engage, and as a counsellor, as a therapist, to acknowledge that and to always bring the wisdom that comes with someone from that, because I have seen so many times psychologists that practise through a practice and not through an awareness of what the person brings with them.

0:15:26 - (Judy Saba): So one of the greatest risks and challenges was to be continually reminded of that. The third risk, and there is more than three, but I'll go to three, was the issue of confidentiality, because I could be counselling you, Eddy, today and sitting next to you at a wedding tomorrow, because we were working with the community, so we created those boundaries. And I owe the Maronite Diocese of Australia for my ongoing dementia, because I taught myself how to forget people's names so that I wouldn't be the one going up and saying, hello, Eddie, how are you feeling today?

0:15:58 - (Judy Saba): And that is really important. And we would create those boundaries and create those opportunities, and I would always leave it to a client to identify me and to introduce me, not the other way around. And if they didn't, I would just smile and walk past them. And I know that sounds really kind of, you know, a bit odd, but it was so important in our community because confidentiality was crucial and also what it looked like. I remember one client coming, and, you know, the taxi driver that brought them came in, you know, the butcher that they'd just been to buy their meat from decided to come with them to help the mother, you know, the grandmother and the aunt. And there was a litany of 15 people that came with this young person for counselling, you know, and you would not hear of psychologists letting 15 people into the room.

0:16:40 - (Judy Saba): But we used to have to do that and bring them in, let them tell us about, you know, the person who's coming. You know, they all thought person was coming because they had a headache or were feeling depressed. And the real issue may have been domestic violence at home. And so we were able to really engage in those, I call them sort of, you know, getting off the highway and taking another route to get to where we needed to be. And that is a confidential space with one other person or a couple or whoever.

0:17:08 - (Judy Saba): So there were challenges like that. Even people that would say to me, could I come to your last appointment? Because I know mass would be over and no one would see me leaving. And that's why when the youth centre was built, I remember Monsignor and myself and Natalie and Deb and Ronnie, we went to great pains to discuss what level would it be on, how would people get to it, where would the door be, where would the reception be?

0:17:31 - (Judy Saba): And to make it totally soundproofed. And that was really important to us and to also have safety for us, because I've been in situations when I was doing that work where I've been, you know, hit, you know, someone's, you know, maybe had some drug issues and just, you know, lashed out. So we had to make sure there were two doors in the room and all those things that, when you think about a community practice may note be a priority.

0:17:52 - (Judy Saba): But we learnt. We learnt as we went, and learnt to not have just three chairs, but to have a lounge, two extra chairs, and the chairs next door in case anyone else came. So those sorts of practices were crucial. But the challenge around shame was a really, really big one. Eddy. I remember this only happened once in my whole career, but it did happen. I remember getting a call at 01:00 a.m. in the morning from someone I'd been counselling, and he had broken up with his girlfriend, that he was going to take his own life and he was going to take his life outside of the building where she worked, which was a building on Parramatta Road, and it was just past Strathfield.

0:18:28 - (Judy Saba): He called me and he said, I just want you to know that I'm going to take my life, but you know, that you've been great and I don't want you to feel guilty. And I was in my pajamas, I was in bed. And I remember my partner Charlie had, you know, he woke up as well. And as he said that, I kind of indicated to Charlie to just ring triple O. And he did that. But I said to him, look, I'm coming to you. I'm just coming to you this, and if you're intending to do this, just please let me come and speak with you first.

0:18:55 - (Judy Saba): Or at least let me hug you, you know? And he said, you know, don't come, don't come. I said, look, I'm already in the car. I was in my pajamas, literally in my pyjamas and bare feet. And I remember going to Parramatta Road by that stage, the police had arrived and we were able to get them to not approach. That night happened to be a night where a very famous lebanese singer had just been performing and there were lots of Lebanese on their way home.

0:19:19 - (Judy Saba): And I remember my husband got about 25 calls that night saying, look after your wife. She's on the street in her pajamas with no shoes on and another man. And, you know, I remember my husband at the time saying to them, which is really what Charlie's about, he said, so why didn't you stop to help her? And to me, that was an indicator of sometimes as a community, we're more concerned about the shame and what people will think as opposed to what's actually happening for someone.

0:19:45 - (Judy Saba): And it was a really powerful moment for me, and it really reminded me that no matter where you are, what you do, our community can be so supportive, but it can be so judgmental. And so it became really important. And I remember having some really deep conversations with Ronnie about this. It became so important to then go back and go, how do we acknowledge and work with shame when it's such an intrinsic part of who we are?

0:20:09 - (Judy Saba): And I've written a few things about this and tried to explore this further and to try to sit with those anxiety feelings that it created for me, but it was important. He didn't take his own life that night. He came off the, you know, the median strip, and he did go to hospital, and he did have a very rough journey ahead of him. But, you know, I still get a call from him every so often, every time he has a new baby.

0:20:32 - (Judy Saba): And it just reminds me that people know where their journey can take them. They just need to know that someone sees them. And I think your previous podcast with Lisa clearly said that people just want to be seen and their choices are their choices, but we need to see them.

0:20:47 - (Eddie Reaiche): I think it's important. Some of the points that you brought up, particularly when it comes to the way people are treated by psychologists, counsellors, and other people, we tend to lose sight that we're client focused, which means that it's about the client, not about us. And we're trying to do the best and look at them holistically and trying to attend to their needs, because their needs are real.

0:21:10 - (Eddie Reaiche): When it comes to clients that come in, part of the induction process is I ask people, do you go to this church, or which church do you go to? And when they tell me that, they go, I said, I will never say hello to you. And don't think I'm arrogant, don't think I'm being rude, but I know what our culture is like. We're very judgmental, naturally, and it's to protect you, not protect me. So if it's okay with you, I'll just put my head down. If we make eye contact and I look at you, it's only because I'm thinking you look familiar, but I can't remember who you were.

0:21:43 - (Eddie Reaiche): And then when I realise that you're a client, I'll put my head down a bit, smile. And a lot of them actually are very appreciative because they realise what I'm doing is protecting their anonymity and preventing the shame, as you put it, to enter their psyche, I guess.

0:21:58 - (Judy Saba): And Eddie, you're a better person than I am because I just want to go up and hug them, you know, so it takes all my energy to do that. And I think it also goes back to something that was in the previous podcast as well. And I think Lisa referred to, you know, place your heart on your hand and it's like you're really feeling all of the, all of the things that happen to you when you are hugged. And I think, you know, I want to embrace that, but also to say that, you know, the head, the heart and the gut work together and I think one of the greatest things, and they're the three centres of intelligence in our body and I always, always go to those three centres. Yeah, the heart is my, because I'm a heart person in terms of all my, you know, focuses, but the head, the heart and the gut and the intuition that professionals have, we're taught not to go with that.

0:22:45 - (Judy Saba): Our training tells us, you know, go with what's out there, not what you're feeling. And I guess my message is go with exactly, with what you're feeling, but follow their lead. This is not my story, it's the client's story, it's not what it means for me or what I think they need. Clients know what they need, they just need a way to find that. And I think that's where I've had a massive shift as a psychologist and I've realised I know nothing. And I mean that quite genuinely, everything that I know comes from what a client puts in front of me.

0:23:16 - (Judy Saba): And I think it's a very humbling awareness to realise that all those years of failing at Sydney Uni because it didn't fit, and then relearning and then doing, taking myself overseas and doing millions of courses and all that, they were all, I'm so grateful for that. But it all boiled down to two things. Work with a client in front of you, let them tell you what they need, and if they can't work it out, they will.

0:23:38 - (Judy Saba): They will, and we facilitate that thinking with them. So it's an important shift for me, and I truly believe that people come through us, we don't do anything for them. They do it for themselves. We just facilitate and journey with them. And it's just a privilege. It's a privilege.

0:23:54 - (Eddie Reaiche): It's that whole person centred thing, isn't it? That the client knows the answers. We just need to help them find it.

0:24:01 - (Judy Saba): I don't even think we help them, Eddy. I think they help us to be aware of what we didn't know about them. Yeah.

0:24:08 - (Eddie Reaiche): Judy, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on today. Monsigno, you've been great too.

0:24:13 - (Monsignor Shora): Thank you. Thanks, Eddie.

0:24:15 - (Eddie Reaiche): I want to finish just by saying you've got a couple of on your blurb here. You've got a couple of comments that I think is worth mentioning and where I want to finish it. Put that the story of my ancestry, the journey, the strengths and the struggles of my parents and grandparents passed on to me inspires everything I do and everything I believe. And then you've gone on to say, my hope is for a world based on humanity, where diversity is valued and where age, gender, culture, ethnicity, sexuality and ability are seen as gifts from, where hate is outweighed by compassion, and where peace is truly possible.

0:24:57 - (Eddie Reaiche): I think they're beautiful words, and I think they're worth mentioning.

0:25:08 - (Debbie Draybi): I hope this episode has helped you find sanctuary in this exciting journey of life. All of the resources we've mentioned in this episode are found in the podcast notes. If you need some assistance with any of the topics discussed in today's episode, then please visit our website, hshl.org dot au dot. If you have any thoughts, comments, or ideas, please leave us a comment on Spotify. Alternatively, send us an email@adminhshl.org

0:25:39 - (Debbie Draybi): dot au dot. You and your mental health matters to us, and we hope that you get one step closer in finding sanctuary. Bye for now.