Exploring Mindfulness In A Fast Paced World - Mental Health Series Pt1

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Key Takeaways:

Embrace discomfort as a path to growth and resilience, allowing post-traumatic strength to emerge from life's challenges.

Cultivate mindfulness through gratitude exercises, guided meditations, and silent sits to enhance emotional awareness and presence in daily life.

Practice focused presence in all activities to foster emotional connection, resilience, and well-being.

Use mantras, nature connection, and body awareness to ground yourself in the present moment and nurture inner peace.

Prioritize emotional self-awareness and connection with others to build strong relationships and navigate life's complexities with grace.

Notable Quotes:

"Deepening the practice of mindfulness has sustained me in my day-to-day life and shaped how I parent and engage with others." - Lisa Makhlouf

"Discomfort is not bad for our children; embracing loving boundaries and sitting with their pain nurtures resilience and growth." - Lisa Makhlouf

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Transcript

0:00:04 - (Debbie Draybi): Welcome to finding sanctuary. Our shared conversations into how we think and feel and how we find peace and comfort in daily life. We get together with experts to chat about all things mental health, getting insights and understanding on the struggles of life. My name is Debbie Draby and I'm a psychologist and a proud maronite woman and a mother of three children. And I'm passionate about bringing people together to share their stories, to support each other through life and all this beauty and. And all its pain.

0:00:32 - (Debbie Draybi): I look forward to hearing from you in this podcast series as we engage in conversations around our shared experiences as a community. We love to hear what you think of the podcast. So please subscribe, share like and comment wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to another episode of Finding Sanctuary. And I'm really excited. Today we've got a lineup of female guests, so we've had some comments from our listeners.

0:01:03 - (Debbie Draybi): Just so you know, we do listen as much as you listen, so do we. Some feedback around having some feminine energy and some female guests. So we do. Today in this next series, we're having a conversation around wellbeing. And of course, we got Monsignor Shora here, always guiding our discussions and supporting us. And our first guest is Lisa McLuf. I almost said her maiden name cause that's when I first met her.

0:01:30 - (Debbie Draybi): So I'd like to take this opportunity to introduce Lisa. Lisa's worked for and been engaged with maronite care for many years. I first met Lisa, I passed over the baton where we employed Lisa as the youth counsellor in a position that I was doing for many years. And one of the criterion, which we hadn't realised until she came to the interview, was that Lisa and I are born on the same day. So it was just a given that we'd hire her. She's my birthday buddy.

0:01:56 - (Lisa Makhlouf): Yep.

0:01:57 - (Debbie Draybi): So we've had a lot of sort of beautiful time together as friends and colleagues. And so welcome, Lisa. Welcome to the show. We're really excited that you can be here.

0:02:06 - (Lisa Makhlouf): Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. And I'm excited to see how this conversation pans out and to be a bit of. Bring a bit of feminine energy as well for your listeners.

0:02:16 - (Debbie Draybi): Thanks, Lisa. Monsignor, thanks always for being here with us and guiding our conversation with your wisdom and, you know, bringing some practical examples from the work that you do with the community. So really excited that you can be here and talk to us on our journey as we explore wellbeing and thinking about some of the positive things that help us, enlighten us and give us guidance, but also some of the challenges that sometimes get in the way of our wellbeing.

0:02:44 - (Monsignor Shora): Thanks, Deb. Good to be here and good to reconnect again with Lisa and both of you together again. So that's great.

0:02:50 - (Debbie Draybi): I know, I don't know about you, but I'm having some flashbacks. It's been a long time.

0:02:54 - (Lisa Makhlouf): I know. We need Father Jeffrey.

0:02:56 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah, yeah, that's right.

0:02:57 - (Lisa Makhlouf): Well, we have to do that.

0:02:58 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah. Yeah. So it's been over. We started working together over 20 years ago now.

0:03:03 - (Lisa Makhlouf): Yeah, that's right.

0:03:04 - (Debbie Draybi): Long time. So, Lisa, you know, in this podcast, we're really having conversations around coming together and sharing stories and life experiences, things that have helped us along the way, particularly with the challenges of life, whether it's around our personal challenges or some of the challenges in our families raising kids. You know, the last series we had was around financial presses and stresses.

0:03:29 - (Debbie Draybi): And I know that we've had some conversations in the lead up to this around some of the work that you've been doing. And I wanted you to share with us some of your, your experiences as a clinician. I know you've got a background in family therapy and you've done the youth counselling with the maronite community for many years, but also recently, your experience as a mother and some of the work that you've been doing, even personally navigating the journey of being a parent, but also bringing that all together, what you know from your professional practice and how you integrate that into your personal life as well.

0:04:00 - (Lisa Makhlouf): So yes, being a parent definitely has fast tracked learning. It's the surefire way to find out what your triggers are and how to best manage them. I have taken a lot of what my background is in terms of the family therapy and the youth counselling into parenting, and then expanded on it and brought it forward into a day to day rhythm and life. Part of that, you know, has led me now recently, to do a course with the centre of action and contemplation with Father Richard Raw. And it looks at, you know, learning from the mystics, learning from the history and my history, particularly as a Maronite and Catholic, on how we can bring contemplation and mindfulness into our day to day lives.

0:04:44 - (Lisa Makhlouf): Mindfulness is a contemporary word, but it holds a lot of meaning. And basically it's about bringing all your attention, drawing it all in to what you're doing or who you're being with. With children, you know, your own especially, that is something that they need. And when you're off track or you're not present, they'll find a way, whether it's a tantrum or a fight with the sibling, kind of, you know, see my kids as thermometers, you know, they're kind of telling me what the temperature is in the room and try to respond in that way.

0:05:17 - (Lisa Makhlouf): And I guess then the mindfulness practices or the contemplative practice is allowing myself to be a thermostat where I can adjust to the temperature. So if it's getting a bit hot, how can I bring in the air con, you know, to cool it down rather than being a thermometer like them? And I guess in a way that helps to model that for them. And then, you know, I'm constantly meeting with people or speaking with Monsignor, and I try to bring that kind of energy or perspective into whoever I'm meeting with so that, you know, slowing down, you know, to help people to see what's really in the moment, not just all the things that they've got to do. And it is a fast paced world, and I think people are really well intended.

0:06:00 - (Lisa Makhlouf): They want to do the best for their kids, their partners, their clients, whoever they're in contact with. But we have so much to do. Listen, and it's kind of like if you're on a freeway and you're going really fast, you're going to miss all these little signs. And often those little signs are the joyful moments that sustain you on your journey because we all go through hard times. So I've found that, you know, deepening it, finding that practice, deepening, that has really sustained me in my day to day life and has helped shape how I parent and how I then encounter anyone I meet or what I hope to do anyway.

0:06:38 - (Debbie Draybi): Well, thanks for sharing that, Lyse. I'm curious to know a bit more around what drew you to mindfulness practice. Like, what are some of the things that you felt drawn to about it?

0:06:49 - (Lisa Makhlouf): For me, I wanted to be present. I want to be available emotionally, mentally for my kids. I've been, you know, when you come from this kind of background and you're dealing with families and they're going through such hard times, I just wanted to be able to give whatever I could. I'm not trying to avoid paying for my kids that they're going to go through that, but I wanted to be available for them.

0:07:14 - (Lisa Makhlouf): And so, you know, I got curious, what do I need to be able to be more available? What do I need to be able to see my children in their fullness, not just in terms of, like, what I have to get done. And so that kind of drove me to want to know more. And also, like, I always have my faith. I've always felt strong, and I've always learned from people like father Richard Rohr and all these great, you know, modern day mystics. And so I just started going deep on it, and it was just a stirring within that desired more depth, a stirring within that desired to not skim over my life and the life of my children.

0:07:54 - (Lisa Makhlouf): So that really did push me to want to know more. And as you start getting curious and you start having that daily practice that, you know, that rendezvous with yourself or that rendezvous with God or however you choose to practice that mindfulness, I felt the benefits of it. I felt the changes. I felt that even if this moment was hard, I was still sustained through it. So it's not about fixing or taking away pain or making my children be good children or making me be a good mum. It's none of that. It's not about perfectionism. It's actually just about wanting to be in that moment rather than to just do.

0:08:37 - (Lisa Makhlouf): Especially with parenting. Like, there's so much you do have to do. You gotta feed them, you gotta make sure they're sleeping, do they need a nap, you know, taking them to soccer and all the things. There's so much to do. I didn't want to just go day by day by day by day by day doing that. And so I just felt like I needed to pause and recalibrate and work out how I'm going to approach this level of doing matched with some sort of essence of being as well with them and with myself and with God.

0:09:08 - (Debbie Draybi): For me, I think what you're saying really resonates for us in a lot of the conversations we've had so far of all the things that get in the way that really consume us. You know, we get so busy in the doing. As you said. I know Natalie's not here right now, but she's talked about, you know, that moving from FoMo to jomo, you know, that constant pressure to be attentive and to pay attention to all the distractions that often get in the way. Cause we're scared we're gonna miss out on something, but trying to embrace that joy of missing out and shutting down all those actions and activities and distractions and just being present in the moment and seeing the joy in that.

0:09:49 - (Lisa Makhlouf): Yeah. And I'll be honest, sometimes it's not joyful. Sometimes it is sitting and noticing that there's pain here or there's grief or there's fear, and rather than skimming through that and it's gonna rear its ugly head with a back pain or a neck pain or you yelling or them yelling, to sit with that and see if it has something to learn from or to feel it so that it can move. Emotions need to be put into motion, and so it needs to move to be able to come out the other end lighter and more available and more open to what is.

0:10:26 - (Lisa Makhlouf): So some of it is, I'm sitting with that pain, but with the knowledge, with the trust that it will pass. Like anything, like everything. Like the wind, like anything in this natural earth that you look around, everything changes, everything moves.

0:10:41 - (Debbie Draybi): So it sounds like mindfulness is not just about embracing the present moment and what's joyful about it, but also the hard stuff. And, you know, we've had a lot of conversations. I know Monsignor's sitting here nodding about the pattern of avoidance that sometimes we can create. And, you know, what that can lead to. We've had conversations around addictions and various other patterns that we developed to avoid that pain and finding ways to sit with it.

0:11:06 - (Debbie Draybi): As you're nodding, what's some of your thoughts in this conversation?

0:11:10 - (Monsignor Shora): I really love Elisa's analogy of the freeway, because, in a way, that's how fast we are. In a lot of ways, our life is. You know, I don't know who invented freeways, but I think when it spread into every other part of life and it's sort of even spread onto the mobile phone that, you know, where we're so much caught up on the freeway of the mobile phone and the fastest of our life on the to do list, that we miss those moments or the, you know, those beautiful things in the present that we're missing.

0:11:39 - (Monsignor Shora): And I know for a long time, even, I suppose, in the first ten years of my priesthood, I was on a freeway of to do list and do things that I found it very hard to be in the present moment. It's important to be able to develop that ability to slow down and to be present. And also, like what Lisa said, to stay. That sometimes we're going to be in the pain. And if we don't fear the pain, to let the pain teach us what might be happening. Cause we might not be actually aware of it in our mind, but the pain's actually trying to teach us something.

0:12:09 - (Monsignor Shora): If we stay with it, will learn something. I do try to help people to stop avoiding. I say to them, we didn't have pain. We'd actually die because we wouldn't realise we're injuring ourselves. So if we didn't feel pain when we walked past the table and kept hitting the table on our leg, we'd eventually keep bruising, bleeding, and we wouldn't know we've got an injury there. So the pain teaches us, hey, you need to stop hitting the table or walk a bit further away from the table.

0:12:36 - (Monsignor Shora): It has that teaching quality and that warning quality that you need to do something about this. And it reminded me, too, I used to. Sometimes I couldn't get off to sleep at night. My mind would be going racing and I'd have a headache and I'd say, I've got to get rid of this headache. I don't want this headache, so I can go to sleep. I've got a big day tomorrow, I've got to get up. So I would actually be making my headache worse rather than trying to avoid the headache, rather than just say, all right, I've got a headache, I've had a heavy day, I'm a bit stressed. Yeah. And it will go eventually. Yeah.

0:13:05 - (Monsignor Shora): Took me about ten years to realize that. And then, you know, I don't fight when I have a headache and I can't go off to sleep. I just own it and say, that's just my body saying, I've had a lot on today or a lot on the last few days and I just give it to our lord. I stay in the present moment and then I'm asleep within ten minutes. But I used to fight it. I used to try and didn't want to be present to it and fight it and would actually make it worse, but I'd be still awake at 04:00 in the morning.

0:13:31 - (Lisa Makhlouf): Yeah. It's a good example of coming to a situation with the same energy, the same doing energy, trying to transform it, but it doesn't. It's a totally different energy. What you're saying in terms of coming at it with an agenda of, I've got to fix this and I've got to change this and I'm going to versus, okay, I have a headache. This is my body's way of telling me something, I'll ride this wave, it's going to pass. And I trust that. There's also a level of trust that.

0:13:57 - (Debbie Draybi): I hear as well.

0:13:58 - (Lisa Makhlouf): So it's a great example.

0:14:00 - (Debbie Draybi): Do you have some examples of ways that it's been useful for you to start building that practice?

0:14:06 - (Lisa Makhlouf): Yeah. So you just start small, is what I'd say, in that it's good to have pauses in your day and you're building a muscle. For example, I had one mum talking to me about her son, and he is neurodivergent. And she came to me and she's like, you know, the psychologist has given me all these things to do with him. And every time I sit with him, I'm trying to do it and he's getting frustrated with me, I'm getting frustrated with him and it's not working.

0:14:35 - (Lisa Makhlouf): And we just seem like we're going head to head. And I paused, empathized. And then I asked her what it was like for her to have a son who has this diagnosis. And then, you know, she welled up with emotion and all her grief could come to the surface in a space that I could hold for her because I wasn't trying to fix it. I wasn't trying. So leading with curiosity in that moment of what's this like for you?

0:15:03 - (Lisa Makhlouf): And then I asked her what it would be like for her to drop all of that for a moment and be with the son that she birthed when she counted his fingers and counted his toes. I do this myself. If I'm getting revved up, my kids are triggering me. I try and remember that sweet little baby that I counted their fingers, counted their toes to bring me back to my heart, bring me back to that loving place to be present.

0:15:31 - (Lisa Makhlouf): So it's to draw me back into that moment that's with them right now, with my love. And she did that. And things transformed for her. The next time I saw her, she was like, I didn't do anything. Cause she couldn't see. She did anything on the outside, but she came to it with a different energy. And he felt that. And kids especially, that's what they're gonna feel. First and foremost. If my kids acting out, I check with myself, how am I feeling? Cause that's what they're picking up on the most.

0:16:00 - (Lisa Makhlouf): Having little practices that you can draw upon or like little mantras like, this isn't gonna be forever, or this is not an emergency, or they are having a hard time, they're not a bad kid, they're having a hard time, things like that. Or even for myself, I don't have to be perfect right now. I'm tired. We can wrap this up. I can come back to this. Especially as they get older, it gets more challenging.

0:16:25 - (Lisa Makhlouf): When my middle son was young, he asked me, he was a toddler and he wanted a cucumber and he wanted it peeled. So I peeled it and I gave it to him. And then as toddlers do, he didn't want it peeled anymore and he was outraged. How could I have peeled it when he'd asked me for that? You know, I could have gone in at going, you know, I have peeled this cucumber. Just eat it. You asked for it and stayed at that level. But I just slowed myself down and was present to him. He's having emotion, I don't have to understand it.

0:16:55 - (Lisa Makhlouf): And even letting yourself off the hook to try to understand everything your child's going through, you know, just takes the pressure off. And so I didn't have to understand it. I got down on the floor and I just repeated back to him, you are upset that the cucumber is peeled. I hear you. I just tried that on a whim and he just started crying. He melted in my arms. He had a good sob about the cucumber and I was peeled and I didn't have to understand it. And then he was therefore lighter because he could move the emotion through.

0:17:29 - (Lisa Makhlouf): It needs to be set into motion. So he had to have that cry. And when you have that cry with someone, it's healing, whether it's your partner, your mum, your dad, your friend, a counselor, trusted, a neighbour, sometimes you might just have it, you know? And if you can bring that presence you're bringing healing. When someone's able to be open, when it's met with that level of attention, it doesn't matter what you say, it's the attention that brings the healing, that's what's holding the space.

0:17:54 - (Lisa Makhlouf): And so you can transfer that kind of thing to, you know, the cucumber. But it could also be, if there's bullying, you can say that. That sounds really hard. I'm here with you. I'll stay with you while you have your emotions or your big feelings, or it could be when someone passes away or if they have a diagnosis, it's still that same level of attentiveness and openness to say, I am here, this is hard.

0:18:19 - (Lisa Makhlouf): I see you. I see what you're going through. So I try to not focus on what they're upset about or what's the tip of the iceberg. I understand there's a whole lot underneath and I'm so happy that I don't have to unpack that every time. I just have to be present to it. I allow the healing to naturally happen.

0:18:39 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah, look, I think that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for those examples. As you're talking, I'm visualising you taking a pause. You know, that's one of the things that I'm hearing really strongly from you is trying to slow things down, because emotions, when they're intense, they're very heightened, and there's a lot of energy, and you're just pausing. You're going down to sit with him in whatever emotion it was and naming it, being able to. Sometimes it's hard when we're going through something to describe it, getting them some words to describe what they're feeling. We might not always get it right, but I'm sure he'll let you know if that's right. You described it the wrong way.

0:19:19 - (Lisa Makhlouf): Yes, that's right. Definitely. Yeah. And that, and that's where you can be flexible, too. There is a level of play, and I don't mean play in terms of having a big laugh, but play as in being willing to give things a go and see how it lands. That didn't work. I won't, you know, I'll try something else, you know, and be playful with it. And the idea of having a practice, like in the morning and in the night or in the middle of the day, or just having those regular pauses are building your muscle to be able to pause when it's really hard.

0:19:48 - (Lisa Makhlouf): It's like weightlifting or any muscle that you're trying to do. You can lift two kilos every day for the rest of your life, and you'll get so far. But if you slowly increase it, then when it's time to lift something big worked out how to do that through your practice. And so having some sort of practice every day, whether it's doing a guided meditation, a silent sit, a gratitude practice, looking outside the window, saying the rosary, a prayer, just having your cup of coffee and giving thanks that you get to sit for this moment and have this warm cup of coffee.

0:20:22 - (Lisa Makhlouf): Even if it's simple, anything, it is, over time, if you repeat it, it builds that muscle and that strength to be able to draw upon that when things get really hard.

0:20:34 - (Debbie Draybi): So all those gym junkies out there. Yeah, Montigna's got his hand up because he's just talking about his gym workout before thinking about training your body and your mind to these practices in the same way that you would when you go into the gym and you have. Sorry, I'm not very familiar with the gym, but, you know, if you can give me some language, am I seeing you when you have a session, you know, you get into a bit of a rhythm and you train. You train in the same way you train your body, you train your mind.

0:21:05 - (Debbie Draybi): I was just wondering for our listeners, those who are curious, and this first time they're hearing about these practices, you mentioned mindfulness. How would you describe it? Like, what are some of the things that for someone who's new, who's a novice in this space, how could you best describe it?

0:21:20 - (Lisa Makhlouf): So the easiest practice you could probably do is the gratitude one, the gratefulness practice, where I heard someone say, if only what you were grateful for today, you had tomorrow, what would be something that you chose, you know, and so choose something you know, it could be that you have water coming out your tap, that you have a working toilet, a working shower, food, you know, in the fridge. Or it might be I felt really grateful when I was at the shops and that person helped me with my bags or smiled at me as I walked past and said hello.

0:21:55 - (Lisa Makhlouf): It can be so small. And the trick as well, a little tip. I know we always say, get out of our minds, but your mind can help you. So even if you don't really feel like you're grateful for anything, you're going through a really hard time. You still can practice that little muscle and just find something to be grateful for in your mind. The body will come along. You'll feel it eventually. So sometimes I'm just like, I'm grateful that I have a tap and it's just so simple and I don't go into it.

0:22:25 - (Lisa Makhlouf): And especially those darker times in my life, I'm using my mind to help me. The mind doesn't have to be always the baddie in everything. So that would be a really simple one. Guided meditation is if you know, and you can google different ones where someone will talk you through. And it might be that they do a body scan where you just go through your body and you relax the various muscles, notice what's happening inside.

0:22:51 - (Lisa Makhlouf): They might get you to imagine yourself walking on a nice beach and just to feel yourself relax and your muscles relax. And so guided means that someone's guiding you. And there's lots on YouTube. There's actually a good one, the mindful movement. They have really good ones. They're good ones to go to sleep to. Or she has different playlists, like if you're anxious or you want a meditation under 15 minutes or a healing meditation. And she's got lots of different lists and she's got a really nice, soothing voice. So I recommend the mindful movement.

0:23:24 - (Lisa Makhlouf): And then a silent sit is different in different cultures and different practices, but the way I do it is through centering prayer. And so centering prayer is basically sitting and silent sitting, you know, as the name suggests, centering prayer is to center yourself in your heart and so you'll notice the thoughts as they come past. You don't push them away or follow them, you know, you just notice them like ships in the night going past.

0:23:54 - (Lisa Makhlouf): And you might have a little word or mantra or something to bring you back to your heart space. When you notice your mind's gone off and you started thinking about, oh, what are we having for dinner? And so forth. So you might have a little word like love, or I'm here, or peace, or come, holy spirit, or anything that draws you. And you placing your. You're placing your mind into your heart in that silent way, and the thoughts can come and go, and it's practising, not running after every thought. So the silent seat allows you to really practise not giving all your attention to any thought that passes through your mind. You will not be without thought.

0:24:37 - (Lisa Makhlouf): The mind will still think, and that's okay. And you don't have to be like, oh, no, I need to get back in my heart. You know, I've heard one nun, when this has been described to, like, a group setting, one nun say to the priests who were suggesting to do it, if I sit for 20 minutes, I'm going to be saying my word a thousand times. At least that's okay, because every time you do it is a returning back to yourself, or a returning back to God, or a returning back to your centre.

0:25:04 - (Lisa Makhlouf): So every time is still a gift, every time is still fine. The more times you go off track, that's more times to come back. So it's fine. So that's the energy that I would suggest to bring to it.

0:25:15 - (Debbie Draybi): Thanks for those descriptions, Lisa. I think that's really useful. And all the different resources that Lisa's mentioned, you will find them in the show notes. One thing I heard you say before was around also having some things to say to yourself, pre prepare those, because we're really good at putting ourselves down and having really negative conversations when things go wrong. Thinking about some phrases, as you said, mantras, words to describe yourself in a more positive way, that's part of the training too.

0:25:44 - (Lisa Makhlouf): Yeah. And another thing that I do that I've learnt, if you put your hand on your heart, the same parts in your brain that light up when you receive a hug light up. So you can literally give yourself a hug by just putting your hand on your heart, no one would know what you're doing and it will soothe you. Your brain will move into, you know, because your body is a part of it. So real mindfulness is gathering all your attention, grounding it into your body.

0:26:14 - (Lisa Makhlouf): Sometimes I'll just ask myself, where are my feet? If I'm, like, in my head space, I'll be like, where are my feet? You know, what's going on in my body here right now? So the gym junkies can do that, too, and anyone can do that. When my grandmother passed, my back pain, I've had a history of back pain that came back, and I knew it was the pain and the loss and the grief. So I went for a walk, and I listened to the sound of my feet hitting the pavers, you know, and I just held that space and allowed myself to feel it within my body, within the movement of the walk.

0:26:48 - (Lisa Makhlouf): So it doesn't even have to be that. You've got to sit and cry it out. There are many ways to get emotion into motion and into movement. And it might be that you go to the gym and you do a big session. Thanks, mons, for the word, but with the intention. So it's not the avoiding it, it's taking it with you on the walk. So I took my grandmother and the grief with me on the walk. So it's just. It's a different way you're coming to.

0:27:16 - (Debbie Draybi): Anything, and it's almost like understanding emotions can show up in your body in a physical way. And I think we've been having lots of conversations in these episodes around that, how connected our mind and our bodies actually are. And sometimes we lose sight of that because we're so caught up in whatever's happening and we've separated them.

0:27:37 - (Lisa Makhlouf): Yep. And often, more often than not, they show up in your body first. You can be aware and you can connect the two, but mostly they'll show up in your body first. It is a good practice. And then when you're going in, if you're silent and you're going in, you're doing a check in, or how am I feeling? You know, that can bring you to it. Oh, what's that about? What else could be there, you know, then to work out the strategy afterwards of what you're going to do with that. Now, do I need to go for a walk? Do I need to sleep a bit more? Do I need to eat healthily?

0:28:06 - (Lisa Makhlouf): Do I need to speak to a friend? You know, it could be lots of different things that you then do with it.

0:28:11 - (Debbie Draybi): I think it's a really big thing. And, Monsignor, I'd like you to comment on that in our community, because we know mental health is still such a high level of stigma, and often it is safer and more culturally acceptable to feel physical pain and to express physical pain than to say, we're hurting emotionally. And that's something that we've definitely seen a lot across all communities. But I think in the maronite community, it's something that's quite big as well. And did you want to talk a bit about that? Because I know that you've seen that in the work that you do with.

0:28:40 - (Monsignor Shora): Families, in doing some of the counselling, to ask someone when they're sitting sort of calm in front of you in their office and say, look, what are you feeling? When this has been spoken about, they won't say what they felt. That's what they're thinking. I said, look, I hear that's what you're thinking. It's not what you feel. What are you feeling? And sometimes I have to ask the question four or five times over a bit of time, and then I say, what are you feeling in your body?

0:29:03 - (Monsignor Shora): I'm feeling tightness here. I said, well, that's what you're feeling. What is that? What is that? And then I'm scared or it's anxiety, but it takes quite a while to get to that awareness of that. I knew myself in my earlier days that I would be actually feeling something and I wouldn't know what caused it or what triggered it. I wouldn't be till three days later, when it's sort of past me, that it would sort of think, oh, that's why I'm feeling that. Or angry at that frustration, because that happened back then. But in the moment, I couldn't make myself present to it to find out what it was.

0:29:39 - (Monsignor Shora): And maybe you could correct me, but I tend to feel that sense and pick up that often men are a little bit more disconnected to being in touch with what they're feeling generally. Sometimes the females can get there a little bit quicker, that men can struggle with this, and then sometimes not liking what they feel, sometimes can avoid by going to the gym, rather, because I used to do that in a way, whereas to trying to be more present to what? Hang on, what am I? What? What am I feeling?

0:30:09 - (Monsignor Shora): And to give that time to it and then to see, right, well, what, is there something I can fix with it or, you know, do I just need to trust and wait a little bit rather to try and run over it or avoid it? And two, there is a bit like, as you said, in all cultures, I suppose, you know, where you go, the men's gotta be strong, you don't show emotion, don't be a wimp, don't be, you know.

0:30:30 - (Debbie Draybi): Well, the only emotion that they can show is anger.

0:30:33 - (Monsignor Shora): Yeah, yeah.

0:30:35 - (Debbie Draybi): That's acceptable. But anything, whether it's fear or shame or guilt or any other pain, it's not necessarily encouraged or supported. Yeah.

0:30:45 - (Monsignor Shora): And sometimes they don't realize that under the anger is actually hurt and fear, which are those base emotions that they need. Otherwise you're just getting a secondary and bit more destructive behaviours that might come from those feelings and thoughts. And I like Lisa's mantras because there's one, I have a coffee mug that has be stick and know that I'm God. So when I have that coffee, it's. Yeah. Finding those mantras and sometimes can be a line of scripture and something that just brings you into that present.

0:31:17 - (Monsignor Shora): Other thing too is I know if I'm near, water helps me to be more calm, more present. Some people need water or if in the sun on a winter's day, in a way, but in the sun is a beautiful time to feel, you know, that sort of brings me a bit present to be more mindful and a little bit more centered and graceful. Yeah. So sometimes people can do that to step outside of their office, find a bit of nice spot, you know, see the blue sky, especially if the sun's out.

0:31:44 - (Monsignor Shora): Just place themselves in nature. Don't light up a cigarette.

0:31:49 - (Lisa Makhlouf): No, no, no.

0:31:51 - (Monsignor Shora): Yeah. Just enjoy that good, natural, you know.

0:31:54 - (Lisa Makhlouf): Nature is a great way because it is present. A tree never wishes it was a duck, you know, so you can't help if you're in nature. It will draw you back into that present moment. It's a great little tool, you know. And a lot of people talk about maybe when they were little, they'd go outside or sit in the sun or pick flowers or little things that can draw you back.

0:32:17 - (Debbie Draybi): Well, look, thank you both. We've had, you know, some great conversations here around thinking about mindfulness and developing a practice where we're able to reconnect with ourself and what we're experiencing. And I'm just wondering, as we wrap up, if you had some key messages that you'd like to leave for our listeners who are curious about this and thinking about ways in which they can start to build that muscle and really engage in that practice.

0:32:44 - (Lisa Makhlouf): Yeah. So I would. The things that we've talked about today, you know, in terms of finding your practice, what is it? Is it going to be thinking about three things you're grateful for in the morning? Is it a prayer? Is it the rosary? Is it just looking at some trees or feeling the sun on your face. Get the practice, get those pause, those pit stops that you can get energy from to sustain you on the journey.

0:33:07 - (Lisa Makhlouf): And then another thing is to sit with what's there. There is so much in that present moment, and a lot of it. Why some people find it hard is because it is hard. There's a lot there. There might be pain and grief and sadness and fear, but we do talk about post traumatic stress. We don't often talk about post traumatic strength. And that's how we grow. You know, those hard times are what no one would wish that they could do it again, whatever painful thing they've gone through.

0:33:39 - (Lisa Makhlouf): But that is how you build your strength. That is how you build your muscles and that resiliency. And even for parents, I often say this when I'm talking with other parents, and I remind myself this all the time, discomfort is not bad for our children. It is okay to say, give loving nos, loving boundaries, to sit with them in their pain, not to rush them to a solution or rush them to the next activity, because that is what's going to build them. That's going to give them their resilience, and that is their gift.

0:34:11 - (Lisa Makhlouf): Even though it doesn't feel like a gift, anything hard that you have gone through, you have walked away with gifts. You would never walk that hard road again, ever. You'd never choose it. But there are post traumatic strengths that we gain from doing the hard work.

0:34:26 - (Debbie Draybi): Thanks, Lisa. And what I'm hearing, you know, really big message is, for those of you who haven't practiced this before, and it's totally new, think about sitting with that discomfort of trying something new. A bit like a first date. You know, it's a first date with yourself, trying to reimagine life and your experiences in a new way. We're able to sit with that initially, it is going to be uncomfortable and it's going to be really unfamiliar, but keep going.

0:34:51 - (Debbie Draybi): It can really enable opportunities to get to know yourself again. And Monsignor, do you have any parting wisdom as we wrap up this session?

0:35:00 - (Monsignor Shora): Yeah. Building on what Lisa shared and what you've shared, I would say that being present, whatever you're doing. So if you're with your child, it's parent child or it's your gym time or it's your work time or it's your prayer time, that you give 100% to it. You're not at the gym thinking about work, or you're not sitting with your child, and you got work on your mind. You try and put that aside and be present with what is.

0:35:26 - (Monsignor Shora): So whatever you're doing, I think that mindfulness is bring the mindfulness to whatever you're doing. Leave the other things. You've got time for the other things at that time. Whatever you're doing, give it 100%. And then you see the gold and the graces that come from it.

0:35:40 - (Debbie Draybi): But like any other practice your first gym session, you're not going to get to 100% straight away. It's going to take time to build up and to be kind to yourself and to know that you're not going to get it right straight away, particularly when you've been so consumed with everything else and all the other distractions. You might start at 40%, but you know, the goal is to try and work your way up to that full presence, that 100%.

0:36:03 - (Debbie Draybi): Well, thank you both. And you're not off the hook because this is a part of our three part series around wellbeing, and we're going to ask you to come back after we have our next episode.

0:36:13 - (Lisa Makhlouf): Oh, looking forward to it.

0:36:14 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah, thanks, Lisa. So nice to reconnect again. Bring back the 18. All right, thank you. I hope this episode has helped you find sanctuary in this exciting journey of life. All of the resources we've mentioned in this episode are found in the podcast notes. If you need some assistance with any of the topics discussed in today's episode, then please visit our website, hshl.org dot au dot. If you have any thoughts, comments, or ideas, please leave us a comment on Spotify.

0:36:53 - (Debbie Draybi): Alternatively, send us an email at@adminhshl.org au. You and your mental health matters to us, and we hope you get one step closer in finding sanctuary. Bye for now.