Career Choices Series Pt 3 - Embracing Our (Kids') Uniqueness

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Key Takeaways:

• Embrace diversity within families and value each individual's unique skills and interests.
• Encourage open communication and healthy conversations to foster understanding and support among family members.
• Trust in your own abilities and stay true to your goals while seeking guidance and mentorship when needed.
• Allow children to make their own choices, learn from their mistakes, and develop at their own pace.
• Recognize the endless opportunities available in Australia and create roadmaps for personal and professional success based on individual strengths and aspirations.

Notable Quotes:

• "Give your children the opportunity to feel free to make their own choices. Tough love doesn't work; support and acceptance go a long way in nurturing individual growth." - Eddie Reaiche
• "Opportunities in Australia are endless; create pathways for success and allow individuals to flourish based on their unique skills and gifts." - Joe Zeidan
• "Knowing who you are, setting goals, and finding a support network can help you stay true to yourself and achieve success in your chosen path." - Alex Bechara
• "The beauty of diversity in a family can create an incredible, dynamic environment with everyone contributing in different ways." - Debbie Draybi

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Transcript

0:00:04 - (Debbie Draybi): Welcome to Finding sanctuary. Our shared conversations into how we think and feel and how we find peace and comfort in daily life. We get together with experts to chat about all things mental health, getting insights and understanding on the struggles of life. My name is Debbie Draby, and I'm a psychologist and a proud maronite woman and a mother of three children. And I'm passionate about bringing people together to share their stories, to support each other through life and all this beauty and all its pain.

0:00:32 - (Debbie Draybi): I look forward to hearing from you in this podcast series as we engage in conversations around our shared experiences as a community. We love to hear what you think of the podcast. So please subscribe, share like and comment wherever you get your podcasts. All right, so welcome back to Finding Sanctuary. And I've got a full house today for our third episode on thinking about our career choices and also some of the financial pressures and stresses that come with that.

0:01:19 - (Debbie Draybi): So we've got a return of our two guests. We've got Joe Zaden joining us again, talking about some of his experiences in this space. Today we're going to have a conversation around relationships and the dynamics that can happen when there are pressures around career choices. Also, we've invited back Alex Bashara, who's joining us, and we're going to continue that conversation around the financial pressures and the impact that that has on our relationships. I know we did that in the second episode. And also, of course, I've got Eddie Reich joining to give us a reflection on what he's seeing in his practice in this space.

0:01:57 - (Debbie Draybi): So overall, a really big theme for us is around thinking about the relationship that we have, whether it's our families, friends throughout life, and some of the pressures, particularly the financial ones, and the stresses associated with that, but also the career choices and some of the challenges that we make. And, you know, we had some great conversations. Jo, I was hoping to start with you. When we're talking about and reflecting on career choices. And I know in that first episode we were talking about sometimes some of the pressures that young people felt to get that, that acceptance and that sense of belonging and that loyalty to family.

0:02:38 - (Debbie Draybi): They feel that pressure to go down the path that was created for them. We talked about, you know, who's making the choices, and often it is the parents or family members to set them on a path, whether it's a family business or something that they think would sustain their life and their future. So I'm wondering a bit about some of your reflections and the experiences that you have on the impact that that then has on identity, but also the relationship that happen as a result of that.

0:03:08 - (Joe Zeidan): It's fantastic to be back. You know, after the last episode that we spoke, there was a lot of information that we'd all sort of discussed and covered. The next phase of that was also to try and address some of the shortfalls and those shortfalls. Being with some of our families in our community and outside of our community, where each child has a different academic level that they've achieved, we tend to have this between us as a family. We sort of have this benchmark. We're one of the children may achieve, are pretty high and outstanding and sets a high benchmark for the rest of the siblings in the family. And the issues then, is for the children that follow, potentially, can I reach what my older sibling has achieved or, you know, my younger sibling or myself? And, you know, have I been the standout academically?

0:03:56 - (Joe Zeidan): And the issues laying around that is that once you have one of the children who may potentially have gone to university and achieved some high ATAR and high results, that comparison becomes a different way for the family to try and deal with it, because automatically the parents are sort of looking at it saying, well, we've done everything we needed to to make sure that our child has done well, supported them through university, supported them at home, supported them through school, tutoring, everything associated with that, and we've got some great results.

0:04:29 - (Joe Zeidan): Now we want the other kids to do exactly the same. And because we worked hard at the first child, then we're expecting the other two to excel. As we were talking in the previous case, where the penny would drop at different times for some of these children, and we're expecting it all to align. And the reality is it's not going to align. And we've got to allow those children to flourish and at their time.

0:04:49 - (Joe Zeidan): And once they've picked their gifts and they find their gifts and their skills and they've got the tools to be able to do well, they've got the time frame to be able to achieve those results. We're not going to see instant results because we've got a high benchmark. And it's a bit unfair then to compare the children between the two academically because we're looking at one child saying, you know, you're a genius, you've done extremely well. And then we're looking at the sibling and saying, you know what?

0:05:14 - (Joe Zeidan): I don't know what we've done wrong, but you're not anywhere near where you need to be. And we're being a little bit unfair because we're comparing the children and we're expecting them to be better again. And that puts a lot of pressure on the individuals, especially when the child is already struggling at school academically. And then this added pressure of, I expect you to do really well and I expect you to go to university and I expect you to have a great job.

0:05:36 - (Joe Zeidan): And if all that fails, then you're going to come into the business and you're going to take it to another level. There's this expectation we're setting of false hope, but we're not allowing that child to be able to flourish and to be able to excel and hit those milestones.

0:05:49 - (Debbie Draybi): And I think that you said expectations quite a bit there. And as you're talking, I'm feeling that pressure of that expectation, particularly when there's comparison happening. Because, you know, any of our listeners who are parents out there will know that each child is different. They develop in their own way. Sometimes we might fall into that trap of comparing, but when you talk about the quality of our presence, it gets in the way.

0:06:18 - (Debbie Draybi): We can't be present if we're comparing because we're already making a lot of decisions for them and that aren't necessarily about them, but about our own expectations. So, Eddie, I'm wondering your thoughts on that because I know that we've had conversations in the past around comparison and the impact that that has on the relationships with our kids.

0:06:40 - (Eddie Reaiche): I'm all about evidence. I think what people forget is, Deb, you would know every pregnancy you had was different. Every child we have is different. They all develop differently. They teeth differently, they sleep differently. It makes sense to think that they all develop differently. Our expectation is they're all going to be the same. And we tend to forget how diverse and how different each child was, how one child started to walk before the other child, how another child would sort of be a happy child and the other one would be a really fussy child.

0:07:19 - (Eddie Reaiche): We forget that. And then all of a sudden, our kids are teenagers. And when they were all meant to be the same age, they're supposed to be exactly the same as the other child. It makes no sense. And so I think this is where it leads into expectations. We expect all our kids to perform exactly the same way. We do not give them an identity. We're actually chosen them to perform a certain way. And when they don't perform that way, we've disregarded them. We've said there's something wrong with you or, okay, you're not as good as your brother, you're not as good as your sister, so you're never going to amount to anything else.

0:07:54 - (Eddie Reaiche): Have you ever thought of what that does to somebody? What that does to someone who's lived their life seeing you as the most important person in their life, who've now telling them that they're not going to be any good? When I was listening to you, Jo, and what you were saying, I was thinking, how could people forget what it was like when they were young? None of them were the same. And we're all built different, and none of us, every person that I see in the clinic, the first thing I say is, you're one in 8 billion people and there is nobody like you.

0:08:25 - (Eddie Reaiche): So how can anyone expect you to be a certain way? We're experts of our babies only because we're with them all the time. And that time we share with them makes us an expert for that baby, not for the next baby. We have no idea what that baby's going to be like. And so I think when we talk about this and we think we know best for that child, if we're using our experience with another child to dictate how this child should be, I think we've really got it wrong.

0:08:56 - (Joe Zeidan): Yeah. And I guess, Eddie, you know, you're right. And it reminds me of some of those things that we've heard in the past where, you know, in those early days and some of our habits that, you know, that traits from early days when we turn around and we think that by putting somebody down, we're toughening them up. And so that comparison comes in because, you know, my son's going to be a doctor. He's going to be studying medicine. You know, that's fantastic.

0:09:18 - (Joe Zeidan): Well, as for the other one, well, yeah, I don't know what's going on with him. No, I don't think anything's ever going to come of him. And there's that saying of, it's not what you say, it's how you make me feel. Could you imagine how that child feels hearing their father or mother saying to them, nothing's going to come of you? And yet my sibling is going to be studying medicine, and he's going to be a doctor one day.

0:09:37 - (Joe Zeidan): And imagine you would carry that for a long time, and if you never unravel it, it'll stick with you for quite some time. So that comparison, as you said, is quite hard, and it's a lot to process, and it's a lot to let that go because you've heard it from the person you idolize, the person that you look up to is the one that's telling you that and the person that's telling you that thinks they're toughening you up because they just didn't know any different growing up as well, and that's just how they looked. It was pushed onto them. So they're not really doing anything directly or spiteful, but they don't know any different.

0:10:06 - (Joe Zeidan): And so they're giving it their best shot. And unfortunately, sometimes their best shot is not the right method of today. And how we could process that differently for the individual to get the better result.

0:10:16 - (Debbie Draybi): I think a conversation around acceptance and acceptance of diversity in a family. I think sometimes we are drawn to sameness and we think it's safer if we're all the same. We're more likely to get along and we're more likely to agree and to follow the same path. And so there's a fear that often comes from difference when two siblings raised the same way, sometimes even twins, and you see that pressure that, you know, they're born at the same time and shed that space in the womb and this pressure to be the same and this fear that if they're not, they're not going to get along or that it's going to affect the relationships and the harmony in the family.

0:11:02 - (Debbie Draybi): I guess one of the things that I think about is the beauty of diversity. And the fact that they are different can be incredible because it creates an opportunity to have a very creative and dynamic family where everyone has different ideas and is able to contribute in different ways and really create an environment that's a really positive one rather than a hostile one, where there's going to be conflict.

0:11:29 - (Debbie Draybi): Alex, I'm just wondering from your perspective, even your experience in your family and sharing in terms of, you know, some of the paths that you've observed, where there has been, you know, in your family, different paths and how that. How that's landed.

0:11:43 - (Alex Bechara): I guess that's a great point to make because I have two brothers, an older and a younger, and we've all taken.

0:11:48 - (Debbie Draybi): So you're the middle child, aren't you? You're so well adjusted.

0:11:54 - (Alex Bechara): Yeah, it's all awful. Show. I can safely say we've all made our own choices, but we've all come together eventually. So a bit of background. My parents have started their own business. My eldest brother was, I think, had the expectation to follow into that business, which he did. My younger brother had an interest in that business and he eventually got around to it. And I think I was drawn into that family group through my own career choice and really helped to bring that skill set. So we all have different skill sets, we all made our own choices, but we all working together in some form or another.

0:12:36 - (Alex Bechara): I really enjoyed hearing that conversation about diversity and understanding the different perceptions that we have of each other. So I can only translate that into maybe something that I understand, which is through the financial or accounting background. And the way I picture that in my head is that each client that comes across my desk, you know, they have made their own choices in their life and they come with different situations. So it would make my life a lot easier if everyone had the same, you know, requirements and I could just do the same thing every day of the week, be quite boring. But I have to deal with people's personalities.

0:13:14 - (Alex Bechara): But along with that, it's identifying and really grasping their individual goals. So from the financial perspective, it's knowing, helping that individual in their specific goal, and realising that each person does have something that they want to achieve, and it's not the same as everybody else. So we do tailor advice and guidance strategy to assist them in their own situation.

0:13:42 - (Debbie Draybi): So what I'm hearing, Alex, is the importance of getting to know someone. They're more than just a balance sheet or a spreadsheet, they're more than just numbers. It's around understanding them as a person and their diversity is what brings those spreadsheets to life, right?

0:14:01 - (Alex Bechara): Absolutely. And I found very early on is one major question in terms of really helping people is asking them, what do you want to achieve? And if they can identify their own goal or future plan, then we can help them better. It can take a while for people to really reflect and understand where do I want to be here? How do I want to achieve what I want to achieve. It's not going to be the same for everybody.

0:14:29 - (Alex Bechara): So the diversity behind that creates a dynamic that we have to work towards. And it can take a while to really understand what you want to achieve, because you have to be very specific in that goal. There's many times where clients come along and we ask them, you know, where do you want to take this business? Or what do you want to do with this particular idea? And the first thing that probably pops into everyone's head is, I want to be a millionaire and retire at the age of 30.

0:14:57 - (Alex Bechara): That's well and good, but it's not a way to achieve it. We need to find what you want to do. The question that Joe raised about every, potentially every child being different personality, you may have the same goal, but you may achieve it. Differently and we want to be aware of that.

0:15:15 - (Debbie Draybi): And I think you've really modelled that. Thank you for sharing your family example of. It sounds like you and your three siblings had the same goal, to really stay connected as a family and to work together in the family business. But you've all contributed in very different ways and on very different pathways. You mentioned your younger one eventually got there. It sounds like, you know, he took a different path but reconnected when it was the right time and perhaps needed to take a different path to get there.

0:15:45 - (Debbie Draybi): Same destination, but just a totally different journey in a way, because of his skills, his interests and whatever else he mapped out. So thinking about that, you know, as we explore our diversities, our listeners, if you have kids that are very different, it doesn't mean that they can't come together and connect and build something together and even work together. And if you talked about your family example, you're all working together, but you're contributing in very different ways. And that makes for a much more exciting space, doesn't it? Because you're able to bring your skill sets into a business and I'm sure your brothers do the same.

0:16:26 - (Joe Zeidan): I think that's a great example. And Alex, thanks for sharing that. And Debbie, you're right, it stood out for me there where you said that although that three of you were different, you could still get along and still do the family stuff. So although we don't all work in the family business and we have our differences, we can still be family and still lead by example for the juniors coming through.

0:16:45 - (Joe Zeidan): And I guess that's probably the key, isn't it, to be able to put our differences aside. And there's so much greatness to enjoy as a family, although we've got different ideas and we've got different goals that we want to achieve, but we're still on the same page and we can still bring that through. So, yeah, I appreciate you saying that because it really helps.

0:17:01 - (Debbie Draybi): And I'm wondering even about reframing that, because often we do have this fear of difference and putting the difference aside. But what you've done is bring the difference together and creates this incredible tapestry of people coming together and being able to work together with all their different skill sets and that makes it successful. Whereas I think holding back with this, we need to keep it separate. We don't, you know, even sometimes avoiding the points of difference because we think it's gonna create conflict or tension, but sometimes it's what actually brings people together and being able to reframe that I think our community, there is a lot of pressure to be the same and to conform and to do things the same way, especially things we know have worked in the past. I mean, as you said, you know, run this family business and it's always worked this way.

0:17:53 - (Debbie Draybi): But what we're hearing, particularly in the current financial climate, we need to be different. We need to do things differently, because the same ways of doing things aren't working, the same ways of making money aren't working anymore. So we're actually craving for diversity, diverse ideas, different ways of doing things, being more creative, and for our listeners, being able to not see that as a threat, but be open to it, because it can create new opportunities and different ways of imagining or thinking about how we organize our life.

0:18:31 - (Debbie Draybi): So we have it on good advice from Alex, that accounting can definitely be creative and not boring if you allow that diversity. And we're going to break the stereotypes of accountants, because this definitely hasn't been a boring conversation.

0:18:50 - (Eddie Reaiche): My house at family dinner nights epitomizes diversity, because I've got a lawyer, I've got a physiotherapist, I've got a nurse, I've got a real estate agent, and I've got a barista chef. And putting them all into one place gives the best conversations. And everyone can add a little bit of diversity into that. And it's so much fun when you sit together and just listen to the conversation and just sit back.

0:19:18 - (Eddie Reaiche): And I just love how everyone is so different because I think what we should be doing is really acknowledging the difference that we all have and really making the best of it, really. I enjoy it. It's the greatest thing when everyone sits together and have their conversation, even about music or about whatever they want to talk about, but even fitness and stuff like that, because everyone brings to the table something so unique and it's not the same thing.

0:19:46 - (Eddie Reaiche): And so you don't get a lot of arguments, you just get a lot of fun. And so we have that on family dinner nights.

0:19:52 - (Joe Zeidan): And there'd be so much to talk about, wouldn't there be so much balance.

0:19:54 - (Eddie Reaiche): Always with the bandst?

0:19:56 - (Joe Zeidan): Absolutely. Well, you wouldn't go without banter, wouldn't you?

0:20:00 - (Debbie Draybi): So, thinking about that, you know, as we're exploring the importance of our relationships and how important it is to engage a better understanding of each other, and seeing that diversity is a really positive thing and something that's not a threat, it's actually something that can bring us together and create new opportunities. I know we talk a lot about innovation, innovation comes from new ideas and creativity and differences, rather than sameness and doing the same and all being the same.

0:20:36 - (Debbie Draybi): So I'm wondering, you know, as we wrap up this, this is the final episode. I'm wondering some of your key messages from the conversations for our listeners who might be grappling with career choices or financial pressures or fear of doing things differently and engaging the uniqueness around them. I'm wondering if there's some key positive messages for the listeners that you think would be useful for them to hear as we wrap up.

0:21:03 - (Joe Zeidan): Yeah, look, I think there's one thing that I take out of that is that the opportunities in Australia are endless. The opportunities certainly are here for that diversity to allow the individuals to flourish because of where we are and what is available to us. I think creating pathways and just road mapping a little bit of your future, being able to get someone's opinion on that, whether it's support or whether it's reaching out to someone, having those healthy conversations, whether you're not screaming matches, they've got to be at a healthy level where everybody can hear each other. If we're screaming at each other, the conversation, it's a stop.

0:21:39 - (Joe Zeidan): But if we can have a healthy conversation and we can touch base on it on a regular basis, that would certainly. I find that's really healthy for families and individuals. I feel that, you know, there's so much opportunities out there for us to succeed and do well. We don't just have to be in the family business to do that. There's so much for us, through our skill set are now gifts that we have. And through some direction and some pathways, we can actually clear the roadmap ahead and achieve our own success and our own merit.

0:22:07 - (Joe Zeidan): With our great upbringing, we've had it within our families and our culture.

0:22:11 - (Debbie Draybi): Thanks, Jo. Thank you for all your wisdom and all your advice and for sharing your experiences. Alex, did you have any, any guidance or any parting words of wisdom?

0:22:24 - (Alex Bechara): Yeah, look, I just found it is important to know who you are and what you want to do. Not to the nth degree, but at least have a direction, what path you'd like to be on and start off and then find the support network, find someone you can talk to, find the professional or just someone who's probably done it before. A bit of mentoring and trust. Just trust in your own ability. I think it goes a long way when you have some support, but you also stay true to yourself and stick to your goals and then put a plan in place.

0:23:02 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah. Thanks, Alex, for sharing as well and being so generous with sharing your stories, but your advice as well. And just both of you, Jo and Alex, I just want to take a moment to really acknowledge, you know, the importance of bringing voices into this podcast. Diversity of voices and perspectives. You know, you both come from different backgrounds and have had unique life experiences, and it's been great for us to come in and, you know, we've had to crowd the room a bit, but it's been a fantastic opportunity to rethink some of our conversations.

0:23:38 - (Debbie Draybi): And really having you at the table has been quite inspiring. I've learnt so much in these three conversations, and I think for me, a big takeaway has been around the importance of building connections and starting conversations. You've both said that in different ways, but also having an openness, first and foremost openness to yourself and being able to explore who you are and understand who you are, but then reaching out and getting guidance and knowing that you don't always have to get it right the first time.

0:24:10 - (Debbie Draybi): And you've both given us examples in your own careers and your own families of how you've tested different paths and you've had incredible plans, and you've created this incredible life for yourself and your families. So thank you for joining us and being part of this conversation. And I finally like to defer back to Eddie and, you know, if you can leave us with some wisdom to match your very wise looking beard.

0:24:40 - (Debbie Draybi): Santa. He looks like Santa Claus before. Just want to say.

0:24:45 - (Eddie Reaiche): I think what I'd like to leave everybody with is give your children the opportunity to feel free to make their own choices. I think it's important to give them something that they can look at. And even if they make the wrong choice, let it be their choice to make and let them learn from that. Tough love belongs in Hollywood. It doesn't belong in your home. Tough love doesn't work. You might get a short term gain, but the long term issues that come from that aren't great.

0:25:18 - (Eddie Reaiche): And so I think it's really important that you hold your kids close. Let them develop at their own pace, not yours. Let them develop their own and accept them for who they are. But I think it's really important that we just let them make their own choices and let them make their own mistakes. A lot of kids out there would look at you differently if they saw you as someone who supports them rather than someone who dictates their future.

0:25:45 - (Debbie Draybi): Thanks, Eddie. And look for our listeners out there. I hope you've enjoyed these three episodes. I do want to sort of leave you with this final message of if it's something you relate to, or if you'd like to be on the podcast, please reach out. You know, what's really important to us is modelling how coming together, you know, can really open up conversations and take us sometimes to uncomfortable places, but also places that we don't even imagine.

0:26:19 - (Debbie Draybi): And the possibilities are endless when we come together and we talk and we share ideas, and we have great examples of how wonderful the connections we have in our community and how we can continue to build on that the more we talk. And one of the things that I do want to leave you with is that we also have made an agreement to step away from the microphone and connect in our workshops. So I also want to remind you of that.

0:26:45 - (Debbie Draybi): Jo and Alex will be joining us in some workshops to really continue this conversation from the podcast and think about workshopping some of these ideas and hearing from you and your experiences as well. So I do invite you to join us and to listen out for future workshops that we have planned around this. I hope this episode has helped you find sanctuary in this exciting journey of life. All of the resources we've mentioned in this episode are found in the podcast notes.

0:27:25 - (Debbie Draybi): If you need some assistance with any of the topics discussed in today's episode, then please visit our website, hshl.org dot au dot. If you have any thoughts, comments or ids, please leave us a comment on Spotify. Alternatively, send us an email@adminshl.org dot au dot. You and your mental health matters to us and we hope you get one step closer in finding sanctuary. Bye for now.