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0:00:00 - (Debbie): Warning. This episode contains confronting topics and issues. If you need help, please contact Beyond Blue. For more information and resources, please visit our website, hshl.org au. Welcome to Finding Sanctuary, our shared conversations into how we think and feel and how we find peace and comfort in daily life. We get together with experts to chat about all things mental health, getting insights and understanding on the struggles of life.
0:00:34 - (Debbie): My name is Debbie Draybi and I'm a psychologist and a proud Maronite woman and a mother of three children. And I'm passionate about bringing people together to share their stories, to support each other through life and all its beauty and all its pain. I look forward to hearing from you in this podcast series as we engage in conversations around our shared experiences as a community. We love to hear what you think of the podcast, so please subscribe, share like and comment wherever you get your podcast.
0:01:11 - (Debbie): Thank you for joining us in this fourth and final episode of this four part series where Paul Tannous joins myself and Natalie Moujalli to share his experiences with grief and loss. If you haven't had a chance, go back and listen to Parts one, two, and three before you listen to this as it'll give you a good context of this conversation. You well, thank you for joining us for another episode. And today is our final episode on our series on grief and loss, and it's a great opportunity.
0:01:47 - (Debbie): I'm really excited. I've got two guests. Well, one's not a guest. One's our resident psychologist, Natalie Moujalli, and one of our hosts. And then also we've got Paul Tannous, who's joined us again. I'm really impressed. I didn't scare him away, which is unusual.
0:02:03 - (Paul): Hi, Debbie.
0:02:04 - (Debbie): So thank you for both coming and joining us in this final episode. And we thought it's a great opportunity to Debrief. We had some really strong emotions and some really heavy conversations in our last episode. Paul, you sharing your experience about your beautiful Margo and talking about the impact that that had and your journey and really that strong message of giving permission to be open and vulnerable and to share your emotions with others and how powerful that's been for you.
0:02:36 - (Paul): Yeah, look, it was wonderful experience to be able to sit here with Father Danny and yourself and share my journey with you. And yeah, it would be nice to sort of debrief that now with Natalie on board, just to have a bit more of an unscripted chat around some of the things that have helped me during that process.
0:02:55 - (Debbie): So thank you. Thanks for that. And Natalie, thanks for being here again. And I think it's great opportunity. We wanted to really unpack some of the conversations and talk about the work that we do, the impact that it has. And often we explore as know, we're trained in the theory and we have a clarity around what the principles are. But however, it's the practice that's complicated. And I really wanted to unpack that with you as a trained professional around your work in this area and some of the things that have been useful to you in this conversation.
0:03:26 - (Natalie): Yeah, look, I think you're spot on. It's complicated because we're human. And, Paul, I loved listening to your episode with Father Danny and Debbie. It's actually quite the honor to listen in and really hear the vulnerability and the authenticity. It was a real privilege, actually.
0:03:44 - (Paul): Thanks for that.
0:03:44 - (Debbie): I think it's important, as we continue this conversation, we're exploring the importance of seeking help. And we're curious, as psychologists around how you navigated that. And sometimes we know that that's difficult to do. But just exploring what was the most useful things for you in counseling.
0:04:06 - (Paul): Think the first step is the courage to actually call the help number that was on the brochure. That was in Margo's little hospital kit. That's the beginning. When I first had that brochure, I thought, I don't need this. But as I said earlier, when you get into lockdown and the clouds get darker and the hole gets deeper, you finally realize that you need help. It's just finding that courage to actually admit to yourself that you need help.
0:04:35 - (Paul): Look, I think somebody that you just don't know. For me, so it was during COVID So it was actually a Zoom call that I met this lady, Patricia, wonderful counselor. And it was an hour call for 57 minutes of that call. I cried. Typical Sookie Paul. So I cried. But it was just being able to have somebody there to listen that was important as a first session, and we booked one subsequently. Obviously, she was very well trained, like you both are, and knew that she needed to talk to me again. So we pretty much booked another session the week after.
0:05:17 - (Paul): It was a weekly session, probably for about three, four, five months. And by this time, we were out of COVID So they were face to face. But it was weekly. Because I was in such a dark place. I think what helped me, aside from the fact that I was being able to talk to somebody that was massive, is understanding the five stages of. I think it's five or six now. Five stages of grief. Yeah. And just knowing where I sat in those five stages.
0:05:51 - (Paul): So the first stage, obviously, I think was anger.
0:05:54 - (Natalie): So the first stage is denial.
0:05:55 - (Paul): Denial, yeah.
0:05:57 - (Natalie): And they're not fixed. They move around. So you can go back and forth from different stages all the time.
0:06:04 - (Paul): Absolutely. And I still do to this day.
0:06:07 - (Natalie): You're the best person to actually tell us more about that.
0:06:11 - (Paul): Yeah. I think it's only taken me four or five months to get the denial. Still, up until the beginning of this year, I honestly thought maggot would walk through the. Yeah, I think I've accepted what's happened. The anger part. Did you feel anger every day? And some days I still do. How many times I swore pictures of St. Charbel because he was Margo's favourite saint, saying, how could you do this to us?
0:06:49 - (Paul): Yeah. You almost live in a contradiction because 1 minute you're swearing at him and then the next minute you're praying to him.
0:06:56 - (Debbie): Yeah.
0:06:56 - (Natalie): And you're clinging.
0:07:00 - (Paul): That's what got me through and gets me through to this day is our deep faith and seeded in our faith. Yeah. I mean, it moves around. I mean, acceptance. Yeah, I've Got to a point of accepting my wife's gone, but it doesn't make it any easier, that's for sure.
0:07:20 - (Natalie): And the bargaining, did you go through that? If I had done this or if we could have done this.
0:07:25 - (Paul): Guilt. Bargaining. Guilt. I don't know what you want to if it's bargaining, but, yeah, the guilt. Absolutely. We should have gone to another doctor. We should have gone over. I mean, at one point we tried to get her overseas with lockdown and borders closed. It made it near impossible, but we never stopped trying. Yeah. So you live with that and I still live with it. We could have done more. We could have got other doctors.
0:07:49 - (Paul): Other. Yeah, it was God's will. That's what you sort of live.
0:07:58 - (Natalie): Know what comes to mind for me, Paul, is when I was listening to you in the last episode, and even now is, to quote Brene Brown, healing requires us to live courageously and allow ourselves to fully experience the feelings of loss and grief. And that's a really beautiful and fancy way to say be a suk. And I will never hear that again and not think of it as a badge of honor, something that you would wear on yourself and allow yourself to be a Suk for the person that you'd love.
0:08:36 - (Paul): And I loved her. And I still love her. And I will cry in church still. And I'll still be a sook. And yeah, I'm proud of who I am. I'm never going to deny who I am. And yeah, do I wear my heart on my sleeve. Absolutely. I think all men need to show that side of them, because it's in us. It's absolutely in us, and it needs to get out. Absolutely. It'll make the world a better place, I believe, without being too prophetic or whatever the word might be, but, yeah, it will make the world a better place.
0:09:08 - (Paul): But it's true. For the first 40 days of Margo's passing, you live in that anger and that denial and those stages of grief. I tried to run away from my feelings. I went back to work after three or four days after Margo's funeral. I try and stay busy, catch up with friends, go to the gym, go for walks, just to keep my mind active and just didn't have to think. But the more you run away from that, the deeper you get in that hole.
0:09:40 - (Natalie): It chases you down.
0:09:41 - (Paul): Absolutely. That sledgehammer is waiting for you. You can't run away from it.
0:09:46 - (Natalie): I saw a reel recently on Instagram, and it compared the journey of grief to a song from a children's book. We're going on a bear hunt. And it said, you can't go under it, you can't go over it. You have to go through it, and you do. You try to go over it, you try to go under it, but eventually you have to sit in it.
0:10:07 - (Paul): Definitely for those first few weeks, I definitely tried to go over it, around it, under it, but eventually it caught up to me and, yeah. And that's when I reached out to get some professional help, and I was very blessed, connected with a lady over Zoom, and she was wonderful. But I know, and from experience around, whether it's a doctor or a practitioner, around grief, you're not always going to connect with somebody, and that shouldn't deter people from seeking help.
0:10:41 - (Paul): Similar to whether you're shopping at Coles or if you don't connect with that particular person, if anyone's listening, don't let that deter you from going out and finding somebody else to talk to, another professional.
0:10:57 - (Debbie): Because it really is such an intimate space, isn't it? And being able to, it's not a question of skill, it's a question of a good fit someone.
0:11:05 - (Paul): Absolutely.
0:11:06 - (Debbie): Is that connection because you form quite an intimate bond?
0:11:09 - (Paul): You do? Absolutely. I mean, I know with the first counselor, and the only reason we swapped was that she retired. She was in her 70s. Her name was Patricia. She was amazing. The new girl that took over my file, I guess, is a younger girl, so it brought a different dynamic and a different perspective, and this girl really asks some great questions, and it's definitely helped even further with my healing and my journey. Yeah.
0:11:38 - (Natalie): I've often said to clients who can get disappointed when they have to change a therapist because they've already done the work, they've already connected, and they feel safe in a trusted environment. And then something happens. The therapist needs to go on leave or there has to be a change. And I say it's actually really quite positive because someone gets to look at you from a different light, from different lens, from fresh eyes, and everyone is going to bring their own perspective.
0:12:07 - (Natalie): Every therapist is still a human being and they're going to see things differently from the therapist before and the therapist after. So I think it's quite beneficial sometimes to change it up.
0:12:17 - (Paul): No, I agree. And for me, I walked in there with a new therapist knowing that it was a safe space, similar to what you said earlier, Debbie. It was safe. So it was okay to continue to be vulnerable and authentic and just hand it over to her. And it's worked really well.
0:12:34 - (Natalie): I think safety is everything, isn't it?
0:12:36 - (Paul): Absolutely.
0:12:37 - (Natalie): Especially when you're sharing your most vulnerable thoughts and feelings. You need to feel like someone's going to catch you, catch what you're giving, what you're putting out there, and for.
0:12:50 - (Paul): Them not to judge. I think that's important as well.
0:12:54 - (Debbie): It sounds like what I'm hearing is what's been really useful is that space where you're able to explore and feel that it's safe and you can sort of have this connection. You've changed therapists. There's been two. That wasn't intentional. It sort of happened because of the circumstance. But the new dynamic has allowed you to explore deeper questions and new ways of thinking about it.
0:13:20 - (Paul): Yeah, I think different therapists, younger. Just the questions have been different. And the first few months of meeting with her was for her to understand more about me and where I've been and where I've come from and where am I going.
0:13:36 - (Debbie): Yeah. And sometimes even that generational difference they're coming from, maybe different. New type of training, new insight. Yeah. And as Natalie mentions, we are human, so we bring in. Yes, our training is one thing, but the practice and that engagement comes from our life experience, too. I know Nat and I talked about, in preparing for this, our own grief journey, we've both lost loved ones in different ways.
0:14:06 - (Debbie): And conversations with patients can be triggering, and they are triggering, and I think that's a really important part of the conversation. Sometimes we share that and sometimes we don't. Depending on the relationship that we develop.
0:14:21 - (Paul): We've all suffered loss. Grief is prevalent amongst all of us. It's just being able to, I guess, lead into it and then deal with it. Say deal with it, but work on yourself and heal from it. That's the key. And I think back when I was younger, where you're still young family.
0:14:44 - (Natalie): Yeah.
0:14:45 - (Paul): And I know one particular family member who lost her husband. We were still young at the time, and she had, I think she had five or six girls she raised. So that woman wore black and still wears black to this day. The husband passed away 40 years ago. She never remarried or re-partnered. And 40 years ago, I don't think there was anything like podcasts or possibly counselors.
0:15:15 - (Paul): So this lady has probably sat in her grief to this day. Probably she hasn't healed from it.
0:15:25 - (Natalie): I think that can be a cultural thing as well. Permission to heal from your grief is something that maybe has progressed through the decades. People used to sit in their hold on to their grief as a way of mourning and as a way of holding on to the love of the people that they lost. And I think as time has gone on, we see it differently. We learn to express our grief differently. We learn to heal from our grief for the benefit of others. I've seen that very recently in the last few years with families I've been surrounded by who have tackled grief in very inspirational ways.
0:16:09 - (Natalie): It does highlight the cultural, the generational difference as well.
0:16:13 - (Paul): Yeah. Now look, we've come a long way from those days to where we are today. Absolutely.
0:16:20 - (Debbie): And you're right, we wouldn't have had these conversations even not 40 years ago, even 20 years ago. I started my career as a psychologist 20 years ago, and I worked in our community. And yeah, there wasn't that openness in the way there is now and that readiness. We had counseling services, but it was limited. People took a lot of convincing for some people to come. Often it would be with the priest.
0:16:52 - (Debbie): We had to very carefully position where the service was in a very discreet place, so people were completely anonymous in when they presented. I think there's been a shift, which is fantastic. Absolutely is breaking down, but we still got a long way to go. And I think these conversations really help. Just finally, I'm thinking about ways in which we can sort of summarize and consolidate our learning and our sharing in this series and some of the key things that we want to leave for our listeners.
0:17:26 - (Debbie): Important messages around help seeking, around the importance of openness and connection and coming together. We do that so well, we have this 40 day sort of period, I think where we drop off is after that, after those rituals and those prescribed grieving stages happen in our community, in our traditions. It's almost like we would have create more traditions post the 40 days.
0:17:53 - (Paul): Yeah.
0:17:54 - (Debbie): Keep the conversation going.
0:17:55 - (Paul): Absolutely. I guess to reach out to those individuals, whether it's through the church or how do we connect them, how do we keep the conversations going. I guess that's probably a task that needs to be undertaken by somebody, I guess, to find out how they're going, how they're traveling. How can we help? Because a lot of people run away from it. Like you said with the bears, it eventually gets you. It absolutely eventually gets you.
0:18:24 - (Paul): And some people aren't prepared for it. I know I wasn't. So, yeah, being able to build some framework around that, and I don't know how you do it, but I definitely would like to be part of that process, if there is one, to be able to help people.
0:18:38 - (Debbie): Well, we know where you live now. We're definitely going to make use of that. And I think what was striking for me at the very beginning, we talk about this being almost a stage process, and we've got the stages of grief, but as you said, at the beginning, it's continuous and it doesn't end. YOu never stop grieving.
0:18:58 - (Paul): Time doesn't heal. Whoever coined that phrase, because it doesn't heal. Time doesn't, as I said earlier, the analogy of the backpack. The backpack, it's there for life. It just gets a little bit.
0:19:17 - (Debbie): You said it gets lighter.
0:19:19 - (Paul): Lighter, yeah, that's right. It does. Yeah, it does. It gets lighter. Where I was, I don't know, June 2021, a couple of months after Margo’s passing. If you said to me then, it's okay, you'll get through it, I wouldn't believe you. It was dark and it was deep and depression. I think that's one of the stages of the grief cycle as well. So I definitely was experiencing the three or four. No acceptance at that point.
0:19:50 - (Paul): But now I look back and if I could talk to June Paul, it's like, yeah, you'll be okay. You've just got to work your way through it. You need to seek help. Stay connected to family, stay connected to your faith. I mean, the faith has just been so massive for me personally. And you meet people along the journey of life, and I tell them, I go to church and they look at you like you got three heads or something.
0:20:21 - (Paul): But I'm proud to tell people, yeah, I go to church. I love going to church. I love listening to either Father Danny, whoever's doing the homily at St. Joseph's, because there's this inner peace, and your soul just feels touched. And it's a ritual that I haven't broken. I mean, I may miss one or two here and there, but it's like.
0:20:43 - (Natalie): A coping mechanism, even.
0:20:44 - (Paul): It is. It helps. It's just another boat. My armory around the healing process, counseling, a structured day meditation, going to church. All those things help. They all help. There isn't a magic bullet somewhere. There isn't something. There's a pill. Take it and you're going to feel better. You've got to work on yourself.
0:21:07 - (Natalie): Well, I love Paul, what you said about needing to go to church, because I heard recently, you don't really know Jesus Christ until you know him as savior. And to hold on to him and cling to him like that through your darkest times is really such a beautiful thing. And it's a, you know, and you said earlier about continuing the conversation, just continuing the conversation. I think it's important to note that the conversation doesn't always need to be, you know, continuing that connection and that conversation around grief. It doesn't always need to be heavy.
0:21:42 - (Natalie): Often you can find the lighter side, the funny side, of course, and explore your grief that way.
0:21:48 - (Debbie): Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's definitely something I witnessed with you and Father Danny. The joy and the laughter and the humor and the banter that goes on between you. Just witnessing that, how beautiful that connection is.
0:22:03 - (Paul): That man is a blessing, and he came into our lives. We talk about the Holy Spirit. There's a reason he came into our lives, and it was to help us through the process of Margo's passing. Yeah, look, laughter in the midst of grief, there's nothing wrong with it. It's part of our healing. It was part of my healing as well, because Margo left a lot of examples of happiness and to laugh and share those with your family and your friends.
0:22:34 - (Paul): I read somewhere that the process of grief is, first is the smile when you think of somebody. Then the laughter, and then the tears follow, and that's sort of be my journey. You smile at a thought of Margo, then you laugh at something that she said, and then the realization of what an amazing woman, and then you end up having a bit of a silk. But that's the process. But that's the process of. Yeah.
0:23:03 - (Debbie): Well, thank you. Thank you so much, Paul and Natalie, for helping wrap up this conversation, and thank you for leaving us with some strong messages and the daily practices that you've managed to develop for yourself. And thanks for sharing those, and we look forward to continuing, and hopefully we'll invite you again soon.
0:23:23 - (Paul): Yes, look forward to it. Thank you.
0:23:25 - (Debbie): Thank you.
0:23:25 - (Paul): Thanks, Nat. Thank you.
0:23:34 - (Debbie): I hope this episode has helped you find sanctuary in this exciting journey of life. All of the resources we've mentioned in this episode are found in the podcast notes. If you need some assist with any of the topics discussed in today's episode, then please visit our website, hshl.org au. You and your mental health matters to us, and we hope you get one step closer in finding sanctuary. Bye for now.