Debbie
Warning this episode contains confronting topics and issues. If you need help, please contact Beyond Blue. For more information and resources, please visit our website shsl.org.au. Welcome to Finding Sanctuary. Our shared conversations into how we think and feel and how we find peace and comfort in daily life. We get together with experts to chat about all things mental health, getting insights and understanding on the struggles of life. My name is Debbie Draybi, and I'm a psychologist and a proud Maronite woman and a mother of three children. And I'm passionate about bringing people together to share their stories, to support each other through life and all this beauty and all this pain. I look forward to hearing from you in this podcast series as we engage in conversations around our shared experiences as a community. We love to hear what you think of the podcast, so please subscribe, share like and comment wherever you get your podcasts.
Thanks for joining us again for another episode. And today I have the privilege of having Father Jenny join us again. Father Jenny North from St Joseph's Parish, who was with us last episode talking about his experience with COVID and and starting a conversation around grief and loss and, and this the learnings that he had during that turbulent period and how the growth and the creativity that emerged from such a painful, horrific time in the community And I've also had the privilege of having a parishioner and a dear friend, Paul Tannous, who's from the St Joseph's Parish. He's also joining us and talking about his experience of losing his beautiful wife, Margo, two and a half years ago. And I just feel honored to be having these conversations. So welcome to you both.
Paul Tennis
Thanks.
Father Danny
Thanks, Debbie. Thank you so much for having me again. You didn't scare me off the first time. Yeah, I did. Hopefully the listeners didn't get bored.
Debbie
No, I highly doubt that, Father. It was a very raw conversation, very vulnerable and really speaks to your nature and your openness and how generous you were in giving of yourself. So really, thank you for that. My pleasure. You know, we try really hard to make these authentic, unscripted conversations And Paul, really, thank you for joining us as well.
Paul Tannous
A pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Debbie
Yeah. Look, I think it's a great opportunity to come together and just share experiences and reach out to the community. You know, when we have someone like yourself, Paul, who's been through, you know, the depths of your grief of losing your beautiful wife at such a young age, you know, with a young family, you know, you've got three beautiful children.
So thank you for really sharing. Absolutely. And being so open and courageous. I did ask you (didn't I?).
Paul Tannous
And I didn't have a choice.
Debbie
I'm very convincing. But yeah, I really appreciate that.
Paul Tannous
Absolutely. I'm happy to share. And if I can touch somebody to who's who's going through and still very raw for them, that they can take something away from this from this podcast. Absolutely. And will reach out to myself or Father Danny or anybody within the within the community because we are blessed as part of our community that we do have a lot of support. It can be overwhelming sometimes, especially those first few days of somebody's passing. And I know with Margot especially because she was such a big personality, I guess, and and had a massive presence within the community the first few days where people come together to pass their condolences. On Monday, my niece, we actually saw for those 3 hours because up and down people walking into the hall to pay their respects. And yeah, it's it's beautiful, but also very overwhelming.
Debbie
Yeah, absolutely. Just thinking about those early days and and how intense it was for you.
Paul Tannous
Because you don't get the chance to actually grieve the loss. Know that doesn't come to four weeks after. I'm happy that I'm happy to dove into that. Yeah. In this in this chat because it doesn't happen for weeks and weeks after the passing that you actually realize because it's all just white noise. That's first up until probably the 40 day mass. Yeah. Because the house is just full of people and people reaching out, which is beautiful. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's lovely, but you don't get any time by yourself. And then after that 40 day mass. Yeah, the phone stops ringing, the people stop showing up. There's no food left at the front door and all of a sudden you know, the realization that, you know, life continues, but you're stuck in this hole now and you know, it is black clouds around you. And it's yeah, it's it's tough it's really tough.
00:04:57:16 - 00:05:14:17
Debbie
Thanks, Paul, for sharing that. You talk about, you know, the intensity at the beginning, those, those early days as 40 days where you're surrounded with this incredible support, this physical presence. And then that changes quite dramatically really after the 40 day mass.
Paul Tannous
Yeah. Look, it does I mean I'm still blessed with, you know, obviously immediate family. Some I guess family have been and still are to this day very, very much in our lives. And very supportive of the kids and I and my family as well. But yeah, then you've got that next group of friends that yeah. You know, the wider community I can see where people could struggle post somebody passing if they don't have support around them. We are blessed, but those first 40 days for me personally and it's just my own personal experience was that I didn't get the chance to grieve. That grief happened after uhh, and I remember the first 40 days and Father Danny did the mass for us and it's that it was a realization at that point that you know Margo's actually passed. I think we stopped I stop crying in the mass you know the tears were just (flowing). I remember she used to say to me, stop sooking Paul, stop being a sook. That was such a famous words because she definitely taught me a lot about being vulnerable and authentic. And so, yeah, so that was how I used to express myself by crying. I remember the 40 day mass I went through a whole box of tissues because the realization was, yeah, it's actually real, you know, that that white noise that happened between Margo's actual passing in the 40 days. Yeah. That's, that's when it really hit me that that, you know, she wasn't coming back home. And it was tough... and still is. I mean, just thinking about it gets be emotional. Yeah.
Father Danny
Sorry every time Paul comes to mass he gets emotional.
Paul Tannous
Oh, we are, we are so blessed to have Father Danny. I still remember previously, just sitting here and we're blessed to our Father Danny. We've been blessed with so many wonderful priests at St Joseph's, but we met Father Danny, Palm Sunday, March 2021. I think he'd only just started at St Joseph's. I remember meeting him (with Margo) and I think we only met you that one time and we walked away. Margo words to me was "What a wonderful priest..." And yeah, the blessing of Margo was she just knew people. She definitely knew good people. Father Danny is a wonderful priest. And I think your homily on Easter Sunday mass was amazing. And Father Eddie's homily as well. And then a couple of weeks after that, we lost her, unfortunately. And yeah. And we've been blessed to build a wonderful friendship post that passing.
Father Danny
I didn't know Margo. I mean other than that acquaintance but I got to know her so much after she died after she passed and the first real experience was when the night that she passed. Everyone just said to me, Margo's she's got cancer and she's dying and we want to have a rosary for her. Can we can we pray the rosary? We had mass and and they came you know, the whole family came. The church was full! We prayed the rosary. And I said, no, the rosary is not enough. I said, we have to offer mass for her. We then offered another mass. And from that moment I saw what kind of an impact that Margot had on the lives of so many people. I can't express to you the impact that she's had on so many lives during her life. Which I didn't I didn't know her during then, but after after she passed...incredible what an incredible woman. And I think that was the beauty of someone that lived such a beautiful life that could still be having that influence and bringing Christ into the lives of so many people after she after bringing people back to church, being bringing her family. Her sisters, for example, are in our committees at church. Why? Because Margo used to be in the family community. She started the family committee and used to run the family committee. And so her sisters, they wanted to continue that legacy, her nephews and nieces. It's amazing. It's such a such a beautiful legacy that continues. It's a family that truly understands that if they want to feel the presence of Margo, then all they have to do is come to us.
Paul Tannous
And that's so true.
Father Danny
I think that I think that's why he cries every time he comes to mass because that's where he finds her.
Paul Tannous
Absolutely.
00:10:54:11 - 00:11:15:17
Debbie
You know, just hearing you and watching you both, I feel her presence, you know, thinking about when you come together, how she brings you together. You've met her that one time. But she's clearly had a profound impact on you, Father. And as you talk about it, I can see that presence you know, it's really powerful.
Father Danny
Even the work that the family is doing through her foundation is also amazing. And I think that's one way of being able to deal with that grief. Someone that has passed away so young, you know, being able to give back to the community through her vision, because that was what she started. And that was and correct me if I'm wrong, Paul, but that's you know, that was her vision absolutely. And the family have continued that. And I think that's helping them to deal with with that with their grief. Because they can offer that hope to to so many other women as well that in her same situation.
Debbie
Yeah. So it's that finding that meaning and that purpose and that drive to keep her alive in all of you.
Father Danny
She definitely is alive.
Paul Tannous
She had a beautiful knack for it. It reminds me of when we go to Concord Hospital for treatment and she, she'd purposely walk through the wards, the cancer ward and talk to every patient. Where I'd go around the side because I just didn't have the temperament whereas she's a saint. She just had this beautiful temperament and she was in worse condition health wise than probably everyone in the ward. But she took time to talk to everybody. I remember one gentleman who was quite ill - cancer, and his kids were around him. He didn't look the best - gray, he looked quite ill. I remember Margo giving him giving him one of her wonderful pep talks. And the pep talk was around look to God for your faith. And we saw this guy six months later, and he was full of life and he came in, hug Margo - I don't think I've shared this story with anyone - and he said thank you. You saved me. And he just bounced out of there and he was cancer free. And it was just that talk is honestly, he looked like he was on his last legs. So she just had this amazing aura. We talk about it often in the family about, you know, her work was always around helping people. We live by her three Fs in Margo's three Fs was her family, her faith and fundraising. She never wanted anybody to suffer financially. That's part of why we set up the foundation was to be able to help people who need help, especially in the community, whether it's our community or whether it's, you know, withi Concord Hospital community who are suffering cancer. She was amazing, which makes it hard and she passes away to to deal with that loss. You know, that loss is you know, I said to this day, it still still burns quite quite heavily....sorry
Debbie
There's no need apologize...
Paul Tannous
It's Father Danny. He makes me cry. And so this is the common denominator here.
Debbie
And We don't even have a mass (now).
Paul Tannous
As the common denominator. And I think it's not you know, he makes me cry. I mean, we've had a couple of we've had a couple of sooky sessions....
Father Danny
Probably say I'm a big sook myself (chuckles)
Paul Tannous
I've been a bad influence on you.
Debbie
I've missed it - who calls you the sook?
Paul Tannous
I grew up in a Lebanese family, Maronite Catholic, we talk about our culture and our culture of men. I'm a man. I'm a Salma. So we don't talk. Growing up, I remember my dad's mum passing away. I don't remember seeing my father cry, you know. So, yeah, I'm not going to sort of say the Maronite Catholic culture, but, you know, we just don't talk. We don't show emotion. It's weak to cry. And yeah, I remember when getting married, you know, I've grown up around that. So you, so you wear that as a badge of honor. You know, I'm a man and, you know, I'm tough and I'm strong and but as you get married and then especially with my guys first diagnosis of cancer, I Sikhs which really softened me, you know, to to understand what life is about and what love is about and what our faith is about. And was sitting there and Margo had her first round of chemo and it was quite horrendous. Not that it was any better when she got diagnosed a second time, but I was sitting at home and her hair was falling out. She had beautiful hair and like every woman, her hair is the most important thing for you girls. It was just getting so itchy. So I ended up with one of her sisters Jocelyn standing over her and was shaving her head with two clippers. And it was both of us. I looked up at Joss and just looked at me and we're both bawling our eyes out. They were silent tears but absolutely flooding down. And that's the realization of going, it's okay to show your emotion and it's OK. So that’s where the Sooky Paul came from! It's legendary now within the family. I know that there were times where we'd get bad news and we always tried to shield the kids. They always knew mom wasn't well, but, they were babies, you know, six, four and three. And when Margo first diagnosed and even as they got older and the cancer came back in 2013, we always tried to shield them from that. There were days where you had to tell them and we sit them down. And when I’d opened my mouth I'd just start crying and then Margo would just look at me and say just stop being a sook Paul. She’d take over and you tell them - this is what the diagnosis where’s it has come to now. So that's where it comes from and that's yeah, it's now, it's now legendary apparently, because even my daughter in her speeches, calls me a sook.
Father Danny
I think it's something that a lot of men can learn from. Absolutely. That's one of the biggest problems that we have in our community is that men don't show their emotion. They hold it in and this is the worst thing that they can do.
Paul Tannous
Absolutely.
Father Danny
Fighting to hold it in and not sit or experience it with somebody else. I think that's so, so important.
Paul Tunnies
In the last two and a half years, I can't tell you how many times I've cried and the release that you have from that when you've cried and really cried sometimes it's KO-ed me where I actually fall asleep because it's just so emotional. The release is so emotional. But you wake up and I'm not going to say you feel better, but you feel lighter. it's very cathartic, to show your emotions and to be vulnerable and and to be authentic. And if there's any learning that I've taken from Margo's health and her passing is to be authentic and to be vulnerable, to say, yeah - I'm struggling, I’m not doing well. And I realized that when we went into lockdown #2, that all of a sudden you're isolated you don't get to see anybody. And the clouds just got darker and darker. And I remember Margo had a folder full of her medical records, and they're just sitting on the breakfast bar. They've been sitting there for months. And I thought, I've got to clean them up. And as I was going through them, there was a big bereavement brochure. So I thought, well, I don't really need these, but leave it, you know? Anyway, sure enough, a couple of months later, I needed that brochure and reached out to them and yeah, ever since that day and to this day, still I go and see a counselor and there's nothing wrong with that. You know, I realize that, you know, because you know, walk out of those sessions, I feel so much better. You know, lots of tears are still to this day flow, but you feel so much better just to be able to talk to somebody who has a professional opinion.
Father Danny
And be afraid to ask for help.
Paul Tannous
Absolutely. It's so important. It's so important whether it's through grief and loss or depression or whatever, wherever you're not feeling 100% that it's okay to put your hand up and say, hey, I'm not doing well and I need to talk to somebody. And it could be through Father Danny or you yourself, Deb or somebody professional. But I think I think what Eddie's (Reaiche) doing with the men's groups, I think we need to get that out into the community within our community. You know, through social media because yeah, if we can help just one guy, you know, who's lost somebody or who is struggling, then absolutely it's it's so important.
00:20:22:23 - 00:20:50:16
Debbie
As I hear you both talking, what really stands out for me is - as men you're socializing in a community where that perception of being emotional or showing any other emotion other than anger is weakness. Yeah, but what I see and what I hear is absolute strength. Like, I think you are modeling true strength to be open with all the emotions that we have because, you know, we're human regardless of our gender. But it is it is something unfortunately, it's not just Lebanese. It's in society. Many socialized to be big boys. Don't cry on, you know, these messages that you get constantly. So thank you for saying that and and for modeling that in such a powerful way. And and it is a sign of strength
Thank you for listening to such a powerful episode between Father Danny and Paul Tennant's I would really like to acknowledge their vulnerability and strength and just how generous they both were with sharing their emotions in such an open way and trusting me and all of you with their openness in the hope that their experience will help others. What really stood out for me is the power of connection and how that helps support us in our grief and keeps our loved ones alive. Witnessing Father Danny and Paul and their strong connection as men and how they come together whether it's through Mass or other settings, you witness that connection and that love of Margo and how this keeps her alive. If you find yourself navigating the loss of a loved one, remember the importance of staying connected and reaching out to others and sharing your pain, lifting that burden, and suffering through the power of connecting with each other. If you are trying to support someone who is grieving, I hope you also find this episode useful and are reminded of the power of being present and available to others and listening with an openness. If we can take anything from Paul's journey, it's the strong message of just simply showing up for others and meeting them where they are in their grief and sitting with them and allowing them the space to share, giving them permission to feel whatever it is that they feel. Please listen out to our second part of this conversation with Paul and Father Danny, where Paul continues to share his journey, and he speaks about ways in which he keeps the memory of Margot alive, how he navigates his grief and finds meaning and hope for the future.
Thanks for taking time to listen, and I look forward to you continuing to share with us in this wonderful conversation of love and hope following the pain of loss and grief I hope this episode has helped you find sanctuary in this exciting journey of life. All of the resources we've mentioned in this episode are found in the podcast notes. If you need some assistance with any of the topics discussed in today's episode, then please visit our website. H s h l dot org dot aew. You and your mental health matters to us and we hope you get one step closer in finding sanctuary. Bye for now.