0:00:04 - (Debbie Draybi): Welcome to finding sanctuary. Our shared conversations into how we think and feel and how we find peace and comfort in daily life. We get together with experts to chat about all things mental health, getting insights and understanding on the struggles of life. My name is Debbie Draby, and I'm a psychologist and a proud maronite woman and a mother of three children. And I'm passionate about bringing people together to share their stories, to support each other through life and all this beauty and all its pain.
0:00:32 - (Debbie Draybi): I look forward to hearing from you in this podcast series as we engage in conversations around our shared experiences as a community. We love to hear what you think of the podcast. So please subscribe, share like and comment wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back, everyone, to our second episode in this three part series around thinking about our career choices and some of the things that motivate us. And I'm really excited. We've got another guest today joining us, Alex Bushara, who's actually a member of our board in the Hill Sanctuary house.
0:01:13 - (Debbie Draybi): And Alex, I really appreciate you coming on and talking to us a bit about your experience. So it's something that I do very poorly, finance. So it's really great to have an expert here with us sharing his experiences. And of course, I've got Monsignor Shora and Eddie Reich with us as well. So, Alex, before we start, we're going to have a conversation a bit about the current climate and the pressures, the financial pressures that family are under.
0:01:40 - (Debbie Draybi): You know, in our first series, we had a conversation about career choices, and one of the things that emerged from that was around some of the, you know, biggest motivators when we're thinking about a career path is this urgency to be making money to support our families or, you know, to sustain our lifestyle. And one of the things that we're seeing is the significant pressure that that can have. So we want to really tap into some of your skills and what you're seeing.
0:02:07 - (Debbie Draybi): Before we do, I was wondering whether you can introduce yourself and just tell us a bit about who you are and how you got here, basically.
0:02:15 - (Alex Bechara): Yeah, sure. Thanks for the invitation, guys. It's really, really great to be here. My background would be currently in the finance space. I'm an accountant by trade. I've been doing that for about 20 years. I've changed careers, I'm happy to say I have changed careers in my past. I've started off essentially at Uni doing computer science, Bachelor of computing information systems, which was also a business degree.
0:02:43 - (Alex Bechara): And that did lead me into a lot of opportunities there did work in the space for a while, but I found I didn't really fit. So I was looking around for another career path. Luckily. Yeah, I kind of fell into accounting and I've stuck with it.
0:02:57 - (Debbie Draybi): I'm curious about that because we had a conversation with Joe Zuidern in our last episode around him working with young people who were similar to you, finding that their first career choice was not a great fit. How did you recognise that? What were some of the things telling you? This is not for me. This is not what I want to be doing.
0:03:15 - (Alex Bechara): Yeah, look, that's an interesting question, because I think I went into that particular path early on, straight out of school, thinking that was an interest for me. I did find that quite exciting, that field, and I did give it a go. I think it was just a choice that I took and I wanted to explore. I worked in that field for about two years and just didn't find a fulfilment in that role and no real career progression for me at that point in time.
0:03:42 - (Alex Bechara): So I had a lot of questions and I was asking around and luckily I had a bit of support from my family and they suggested, you know, there is an opportunity that they could use a skill set in the accounting field for their own small business. It gave me a bit of conviction to give it a go. So I did decide to go back to uni and I explore that particular career path and it's really worked out for me. I have now a sense of fulfillment by helping my family and obviously with a new career path and assisting clients and customers who come to look for help.
0:04:21 - (Debbie Draybi): Wow. So it's been an opportunity, you know, when Jo was talking around the challenge, sometimes when people find they have to start overd and it's not a good fit, but it sounds like it's open doors for you, really, where you're able to navigate with your family something that's going to be useful to them and supporting the family business. No pressure, but also being able to then create your own path and to build a career separate to just supporting your family, but supporting yourself and doing it a bit differently.
0:04:53 - (Alex Bechara): Yeah, I think it worked out for me. It worked out for me because I did have the support. I could reach out to people around me. I was able to ask questions, you know, close family members, my own family, and people who have been in the field previously. So I think there's a lot of opportunity there to reach out, not be afraid to take the plunge and also find something that actually does fit for you, but also has the potential to create a career that can be long lasting as well.
0:05:23 - (Debbie Draybi): Asking questions, you know, it's such an important thing. And I think sometimes we put pressure on ourselves to want to present that we know everything and being able to be curious and to let people know that we don't know, and we're curious about whatever it is they might have some information they can share with us. I think it's been a really big theme that certainly we talked about with Jo around, reaching out, asking for help, asking the right questions, to be guided to make better choices, because sometimes your first one isn't a good fit, and you're a great example of that.
0:06:00 - (Debbie Draybi): Monsignor, as you hear, Alex, you know what's emerging for you. Is there anything that comes to mind as we're exploring career choices and navigating? Sometimes the first one isn't the right one and what it means for future choices?
0:06:15 - (Monsignor Shora): Yeah, I suppose I was just thinking back on my own, even though I did go into study to be a priest fairly early my first year, I went into uni. So I was thinking, you know, teaching politics, I wasn't 1100% sure. So anytime anyone comes to me, politics, one thing. Yes, I was in politics. Politics, yeah. Diplomatic core. Yeah. So I did philosophy, history. I really was confused when I left. I wasn't one sure.
0:06:43 - (Monsignor Shora): So whenever I hear young people, you know, saying, I'm not sure, I said, that's okay, just think about it, open it to ask God, you know, and then just see, you know, try, look and explore. And then I was just thinking about one of my school friends. He went to uni with me, and he dropped out after the half year. And he, he went and worked with his dad in the family business. And then he ended up, after four or five years, going back to uni. He was doing economics, business. He went into psychology, and he's now a doctor of psychology.
0:07:13 - (Monsignor Shora): So it took him a while to find his gift, and we call it a career. There's also a little bit of calling in it where you feel you're doing good. So, yeah, whenever anyone comes, young people or even people a little bit further along in their work to struggle with this issue, you know, we're very blessed in Australia in a lot of ways that you can even, you know, we can go back to university mature age students.
0:07:34 - (Monsignor Shora): There's great possibilities to, you know, just the difficulty is, can be if they want to look to make a career change is if they've got financial commitments, and that's going to be a struggle for them if they need to go back to uni or that can be something. That can be a constraint on them.
0:07:51 - (Debbie Draybi): Yes. And Mons, what I'm hearing is the openness to exploring and putting less pressure on yourself to get it right straight away because, you know, you thought about different paths and you've given us some really good examples. But then there's this also this added layer of urgency and pressure because of financial pressures to generate an income, an income that's going to be sustainable. Particularly, you know, if you have a lot of responsibilities and want to support a family and life is expensive.
0:08:18 - (Debbie Draybi): And we've got the expert here, Alex, and I want to refer to you around what you're seeing now in your chosen profession, your second choice in finance and accounting. Some of the things that you're witnessing in your practice, particularly in the current climate where we know there is a lot of financial pressure and this global financial crisis that's going on.
0:08:41 - (Alex Bechara): Yeah, no, that's a really good point. It is a struggle. We are seeing an increase in anxiety around financial pressure. Families, individuals, everyone's really been thrown into the deep end here. I think the economic climate at the moment is nothing conducive to people being free to explore maybe what they want to be doing. There's a lot of constraints around the cost of living issues and actually probably holding people back. You know, we are still finding people struggling from the effects of the COVID period and the lockdowns and all the issues that were raised around that. We have, you know, many, many clients who were doing really well, who are now putting up their hand and asking for help.
0:09:27 - (Alex Bechara): There is a downturn in, obviously, spending out there, which does impact business. It's a real thing and we're seeing more and more of it happen every day.
0:09:34 - (Debbie Draybi): So thinking about that, there's just a lot of pressure. And as you said, people that were doing well are now just really barely surviving to maintain their lifestyle. And I think one of the things that we talk about in this podcast is how it relates to our community and some of the pressures that that then has, particularly when, you know, we're not able to maintain a lifestyle or a status that we're used to or that we're comfortable with or that we think is good enough.
0:10:03 - (Debbie Draybi): I'm wondering about that. If you're seeing some of that and the impact that they're having on people's emotions, but also their connection with their family and their community.
0:10:13 - (Alex Bechara): Yeah, it is a real problem. I think people, myself included, it's very hard to change and adapt. So as we see the climate, you know, deteriorate economically or socially in financial space. We do need to have the ability to assess and understand what can I do and what I can't do anymore. And it does go in cycles. So there is essentially light at the end of the tunnel. But we do have to be present and aware of what's happening in the here and now that comes with, I guess, being perceptive of the changes in our situations at home, in the workplace, and having the tools to draw on. So you can actually go out there and make the hard choices sometimes, yeah.
0:10:57 - (Debbie Draybi): It'S a tricky one, isn't it? Being able to change and to accommodate it is temporary. As you said, it's a cycle and it will change and things will improve. But at this point, sometimes being able to make compromises, spend less or be creative about the limited resources that you do have, perhaps the impact, you know, on what you're used to day to day. Eddie, I'm wondering about yourself. You know, you're seeing these issues, the financial pressures that Alex mentioned, the anxiety that's emerging around financial stress. I'm wondering, is this something that you're starting to see or have been seeing in your practice?
0:11:35 - (Eddie Reaiche): I've seen a lot of financial anxiety and stress from a lot of clients. In particularly couples. A lot of arguments go around spending. And unfortunately, I see couples where gambling is an issue and that impacts on their relationship because of the financial burden that places on their relationship. And I see this and I see it with couples that are, or families that are having issues because they're trying to make do with what they have. And a lot of times it's only a single income, and then they're trying to make the most they can from that one income.
0:12:12 - (Eddie Reaiche): And they seem to struggle. Everything is a struggle for them. And it's really tough because it's nothing I can do to help because I'm not a financial person. But I listen to everything you said, and I got to tell you, I'm not particular about the word finance. It's not in my narrative. But I loved when you said presence and here and now you had me perked up when you said that because that's counselling stuff.
0:12:36 - (Eddie Reaiche): And I loved hearing that. But I can see a lot of problems that happens in families because of finance. And it's really tough because like I said, it's very little I can see do about helping people with finance and helping them when they struggle. But it's interesting, when I did a little bit of reading, I found it was getting a financial advisor is probably the best thing that anyone could do, because regardless of how much money they have or how much money they make, a financial adviser can help them work things out.
0:13:08 - (Eddie Reaiche): And having you on here is going to help a lot of people more than you think, I believe. Because people just need answers because they don't have any.
0:13:17 - (Alex Bechara): Yep. No, it's a great point. Financial advice is a really good place to start, but it's also not the only, I guess, tool out there as well. I'm a strong proponent of just being educated enough to understand your current personal situation. So that could be very simply being aware of what's coming in versus what's going out. And reaching out to a financial advisor is a great tool to have as well. Could just solidify information and broaden opportunities that you could have to maximise your current situation and plan and forecast for the future.
0:13:52 - (Alex Bechara): I tend to see a lot of it with clients who come in just looking for answers. And the first question is, you know, what do we have to work with? And a lot of people just don't have the information or the ability to communicate what the problem is. So we tend to break it down to numbers. And you can't argue with numbers once you've kind of plotted it all out for them and you can explain, well, this is really the situation you're in. You can start to work from there and the building blocks occur, and you can try to educate the individuals about, this is potentially where you've been falling over.
0:14:25 - (Alex Bechara): Let's help you avoid that in the future and continue to improve and grow. And, yeah, education, I think, is a great one. And you said it yourself, reaching out to a financial advisor is key. Having the support or the ability to just ask questions can be a lifesaver.
0:14:42 - (Eddie Reaiche): One of the things that I came across when I was doing a lot of research is there's a lot of people who tend to avoid what's actually happening. It's that head in the sand thing, and they're trying to make do with something, but don't want to actually look at where their findings are because they're so scared of what they might find. And the worst part about that is it doesn't help things by just turning a blind eye.
0:15:08 - (Eddie Reaiche): And so this avoidance is one of the hallmarks of anxiety, financial anxiety. The hallmark's gonna be avoidance as well, and not looking at what their finances are and what they can do about it. And a lot of people, I guess, just think if we just let it go, it'll sort itself out until it becomes too late, and then they're really struggling.
0:15:30 - (Alex Bechara): Yeah, I believe the key there is, I probably touched on that before in terms of just asking questions, not being afraid to learn, and grow internally, because that will reveal those anxieties. And once they're out in the open, you can deal with them. So I think that's part of my job day to day, is to really just make people aware of what they have. And I don't go into the psychological side of things, but I can definitely paint a picture of their financial side of their life, and that can actually ease a lot of anxiety.
0:16:02 - (Debbie Draybi): And what I'm hearing is sometimes it's very difficult to separate and financial from the emotional because they're very enmeshed, aren't they? And often we see our worth by how much we make. And, I mean, I think we can all agree in all our conversations around, we do have a lot of pressure in our community around that. We see people as dollar signs, and very much their worth is measured by their take home income.
0:16:32 - (Debbie Draybi): So I'm wondering about that. You know, as you're talking, I'm hearing that being able to separate that and to get a better understanding in a meaningful way, it's not about your value as a person. It's about realistically what you make and how you can live with that in a practical way.
0:16:52 - (Alex Bechara): I think there's a huge misconception about who we are. And you say to yourself, we tend to label ourselves or each other based on what we can see, not necessarily what is more important. Living within our means is definitely a great way to start, but finding, I guess, our self worth in terms of how do we do that. It's really understanding our identity, what we want to be doing, where do we want to be going, and not leaving that kind of mask that we're showing out to other people.
0:17:22 - (Alex Bechara): So I think that's a great place to start in terms of really knowing who we are, what do we want to be doing, and the career choices then come into play. Are we doing what we love to do, or are we just doing it because someone else has the expectation of us and then really bringing that whole package together, because it will then allow us to live our best life?
0:17:44 - (Debbie Draybi): Marcelia, as you're listening to Alice, I know that it's something that we've talked about quite a bit in these podcasts around the masks and the pressure that people place on themselves to sometimes live beyond their means and to live a certain role or a status. And I'm wondering for you, you know, whether there's some guidance around that and sort of how you've supported families when they're feeling stuck in that way.
0:18:08 - (Monsignor Shora): Yeah. What Alex mentioned, too, where people perceive their worthy, what they have or what they. A lot of conversation sometimes is talking about what we have and what we're doing and work. And if, you know, I know some people where they might feel they can't compete with the. In the conversation with what happened that gets them down. Another pressure, too, is where. And I suppose it would be greater now, but I used to hear it come up in conversation, you know, I've got to work hard now, father, you know, and the impact on a family where a husband will be working really, really long hours because he wants to reduce the debt, reduce the loans, and I want to get rid of this loan as quick as I can. As quick as I can. So that's why I'm working these 17 hours a day or whatever, seven days a week.
0:18:57 - (Monsignor Shora): It's almost like there's a guilt in having a debt that you owe the bank money, you know, and I said, well, that's pretty normal. There's a very big discomfort that, you know, the conversation I'm thinking of, he was meeting his payments, but he just wanted to pay the loan off so much quicker. And I said, no one's. And even if you're struggling a bit, I said, no one's going to be starving in the bank. Why are you putting yourself under this pressure?
0:19:21 - (Monsignor Shora): And then your family's suffering, you know, they're not getting your time, you're not looking after yourself. So it was just getting them also to see that I owe the bank money. I've borrowed and I'm living, I'm surviving, and I don't know if that's something you've felt, Alex, or picked up, where people just can be a little bit obsessed with, I've got to get rid of the debt, I've got to get rid of my loan quicker than it's a ten year loan and then. All right, yeah, but I've got to pay it off in three years, you know. Well, you can, but if you put yourself under so much emotional and mental stress doing it, you know. Yeah, that used to be a theme. So I'm just wondering now for a lot where there is the higher interest rates, that there's even more pressure in that regard, in what I owe and, you know, things like that, how people are coping. And I think Alex answered a key is that I need to know what my identity is not in what I have and what I do first my identity is the person I am, who God's created me to be, you know, and then he's.
0:20:22 - (Monsignor Shora): Then I'm going from that identity and trusting and getting good support and that, and to manage as best I can. And then, and also opening to my spouse, the wife, about a lot of, say, I don't want my wife to worry. We've got financial pressure. I don't want my wife to worry about it. So I don't tell her. So the wife's more worried because she's not telling and doesn't know what's going on. Conceived, you know, why not share it? Yeah. Why not get that support of your spouse? You know, it brings you closer, then, you know, it gives you more support and helps you. So they're the. Some of the things that crossed my mind. Did listen to Alex and Eddy?
0:21:02 - (Debbie Draybi): Yes. Thinking about the importance of when there are financial pressures and stresses, it can be quite alienating and you do feel alone and it's something that you have to resolve on your own. But what you're saying is the importance of reaching out to your spouse, but also, Alex, reaching out to professionals who can give you some guidance and get rid of that emotional attachment that we have with financial pressures. And thinking about in a more logical, practical way where, you know, you have good models on how you can help someone get out of that debt or manage that debt in a much more sort of logical and less emotional way.
0:21:42 - (Alex Bechara): Yeah, no, that's definitely true. There is always benefits to having more, I guess, tools in your tool belt in terms of that. So if you're finding, yeah, there is an anxiety around your finances or you're just not comfortable where you are or you want to be somewhere else or you want to get out of that hole or get away from a particular debt or a loan, I think it's the key there is to find a suitable support person, someone who can advise, even just talk. I think just starting conversation is key there. Be it with family, friends and then see where that leads.
0:22:18 - (Debbie Draybi): I think that's a really important message. Thinking about not holding it in and carrying it on your own because it's a huge burden, but being able to start that conversation, I think that's a beautiful message to leave us with. And it doesn't always have to be go to a financial expert or professional straight away. It could be the people closest to you. So getting rid of some of that tension, but also that shame or fear or guilt or whatever emotions that are wrapped in all that pressure and being able to connect because the clients that you see, it's a common issue. It's not something that is isolated and most people are grappling with, especially in the current climate.
0:22:58 - (Debbie Draybi): So any other messages, any other key messages that you think would be useful for our listeners who are struggling and who are suffering in silence around their financial pressures?
0:23:09 - (Alex Bechara): Look, I think there are a lot of opportunities to reach out now. I think, you know, the Hill Sanctuary house is creating that space for people to come together. The many initiatives that the group are putting together, I think it's easy to. It's easier now to find a place where you're comfortable to talk. You know, men can get together, women can get together, there are spaces for counselling and such. So finding a place for you to go and talk is probably your first step and probably the best place to start.
0:23:42 - (Debbie Draybi): And I think as a community, we're good at having conversations. And often they're ones, as Monsignor was saying, celebrating your successes, celebrating your wealth and even sometimes showcasing that. But what we're really advocating for today is to be able to start the conversations about the challenges and the struggles and to normalise it. And it's okay, because, yes, we're a community that have accumulated a lot of wealth, but also, so we're struggling now and we're seeing that happen a lot with most families.
0:24:11 - (Debbie Draybi): So being able to normalise that and to start that conversation in a safe way where there's no shame or guilt or fear. Eddie, do you have any parting comments for this session around thinking about some of those financial stresses and pressures that families are under?
0:24:29 - (Eddie Reaiche): One of the things that struck me was what Monsignor said about debt I and how people relate to debt. People prioritise finance higher than anything else in their family life. And when they do that, they put their family aside as less important than their financial status or where they are financially. And if they're in debt, that guilt and shame that surrounds them because of that makes them a different person and not the person they really need to be for their family?
0:24:58 - (Eddie Reaiche): I think what they should be doing should's a bad word. But I think what people should think about is, what are your priorities in life? If it's about finance, then I think you should have another look around and think about a different way of looking at things. If it's your family, then I think that's the right track, because by the time you get your finances exactly how you think you want it to be, you've probably lost your family in the process.
0:25:25 - (Eddie Reaiche): So to me, it's really important to get our priorities right. And debt is a natural and normal thing now for a society. And so as long as we can keep up the payments, I think we should always bring our focus back to the family, do the best that we can there.
0:25:43 - (Monsignor Shora): I would just say amen to what Eddie just said there. And Alex, yeah, Eddie really named, he even put that word, the debt that he named it. The debt have made finance in their mind. Finance is the priority, and that's where they go. How do they shift that down to say, no, my family's the priority. And this time, and now, coming into the now, and yet, long as I'm keeping up with the payment, I think that's well said. Eddie, thank you.
0:26:09 - (Debbie Draybi): And Alex, well, thank you. Thank you all for being part of this conversation. Alex, again, you're not off the hook. We would like to invite you to the next episode to continue to explore this conversation around the relationships that we have and how sometimes our financial situation can impact on our relationships, particularly with our family and our family dynamics and some of the pressures that that can have. So thank you for joining us, and thanks for all your guidance. And you do it in such a genuine and gentle way.
0:26:45 - (Debbie Draybi): I hope this episode has helped you find sanctuary in this exciting journey of life. All of the resources we've mentioned in this episode are found in the podcast notes. If you need some assistance with any of the topics discussed in today's episode, then please visit our website, hshl.org dot au dot. If you have any thoughts, comments, or ideas, please leave us a comment on Spotify. Alternatively, send us an email at administrative you and your mental health matters to us, and we hope you get one step closer in finding sanctuary.
0:27:24 - (Debbie Draybi): Bye for now.
