0:00:00 - (Debbie Draybi): Welcome back to another episode on Finding Sanctuary. I'm Debbie Draby and I've got Eddie Reich with me. And we finally rope Natalie Majali in for our third episode around addiction. And we're, you know, really pleased to have you both here. I think it's an important conversation as we continue to talk about that journey and that experience of addiction. And in particular, in our last conversation, we were talking about the impact on families and recognising when it is in.
0:00:32 - (Debbie Draybi): And often it's family members, spouses that bring their loved one in kicking and screaming, often to the point where things are broken down and have really escalated and they're considering separating or divorcing. I think, Eddie, you mentioned that. So I thought this episode we can talk about, you know, what are some of those things that brings families in so desperate in that bid for help and when it gets to that point where they can't see any other way out.
0:01:03 - (Debbie Draybi): I'm wondering from your experiences, we haven't heard from you yet with this. I wondering if we start with you, if you don't mind. Cause Eddie likes to go second.
0:01:15 - (Natalie Moujalli): I like to go second, Eddie.
0:01:17 - (Debbie Draybi): But, yeah, we're just thinking about families you've worked with or your experiences with addictions and how it impacts families and what is it that leads them to ask for help and to bring their loved one in?
0:01:29 - (Natalie Moujalli): Yeah, I think often, almost always, it's desperation. You know, nobody wants to drag a family member kicking and screaming in to get help. That's not how we see it going. There are so many things that are affected when we do that. You know, people's pride, their sense of shame, their sense of self is so deeply impacted. But they're desperate. They're desperate for help and I think often very much so. Primarily, there's this very deep loss of connection in whatever relationship it is, whether it's spouse or whether it's a partner, whether it's a family member.
0:02:07 - (Natalie Moujalli): There's been this very deep loss of connection and often that person is thinking, where have I lost them to and what have I lost them to? And I think those questions can really plague the people that love them. So I think that's what brings them in and gets them to drag their loved ones in.
0:02:26 - (Debbie Draybi): So, yes, they might still be together, but in a lot of ways they've lost them their connection and that intimacy isn't there because the addiction really takes over. It gets in the way of the.
0:02:39 - (Natalie Moujalli): Relationship and it changes who they are as well. So that's not my husband anymore. That's not my partner, not what I'm used to.
0:02:48 - (Debbie Draybi): So really, they stop recognizing them, and they become very unfamiliar and almost foreign to them in that disconnect.
0:02:55 - (Natalie Moujalli): Yeah, exactly.
0:02:56 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah. And, Eddie, as you're hearing that, I know that you've mentioned examples of, you know, that impact of an addiction can have on someone, but also that's describing that huge separation and disconnect, not being able to recognize the person anymore.
0:03:17 - (Eddie Reaiche): I think Nat said it right when she said desperation. Because everyone who's coming to the clinic has come in with the utmost desperation. And for two reasons. One, because they've just received an eviction notice. They didn't even realise that there was financial issues. And the other thing is the uncertainty of their life, because they no longer know where they're going or where they're heading. They had an idea. They thought everything was going great in their family. They've got kids, they've got a husband.
0:03:50 - (Eddie Reaiche): He's working. She thought it was just a typical, average family. And now there's no money. The financial strain is huge. They don't know what to do. They've involved the family out of desperation as well. And the family have no idea. They don't know how to handle this. And so the desperation leads them to the office, and they come into the.
0:04:11 - (Natalie Moujalli): Clinic, and not only is there no money, Eddie, but there's no trust. And I think that that can really undermine everything. Because you know what? You can deal with money issues. You can find solutions. But when you've tampered with the trust, it's very hard to move forward to find a solution.
0:04:32 - (Eddie Reaiche): It's true. I tell the partner, the one who's gambling or whatever it is, that the trust part is such an integral part in their relationship. But everyone thinks that trust is a given, but it's really just a privilege. It's not something that's given. So once you break that trust, it's not simple to fix again. And when it comes to addiction, when it comes to gambling, things like that, or finding out something about their partner they didn't know existed.
0:05:02 - (Eddie Reaiche): And it was always in stealth mode, because totally oblivious to what was going on then what else is happening and what happened to that trust? And who can they turn to? Who's going to help them? I really feel for a lot of the partners who come in totally bewildered because they don't know what the answers are or what to do. And then when you sit down and you start explaining things to them, that's one thing.
0:05:27 - (Eddie Reaiche): But in the back of their minds, they're thinking, who else is going to come knocking on the door? And I've had people where they've had people who aren't legitimate type people wanting their money because their partner has, out of desperation, borrowed money from not legitimate sources. And these people aren't nice people. And now they feel threatened because they feel their family's threatened and their kids, they're trying to keep their kids safe. So there's so much going through their minds. It's pretty sad.
0:06:00 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah. It's like this deep betrayal and breach of trust at so many levels, isn't it, to try and sort of support their addiction.
0:06:11 - (Natalie Moujalli): What's really sad about it is that people conceal their addiction not just because they want to. They don't just want to get away with this as long as they can, for as long as possible. They also don't want to burden their family members and their friends with their addiction. So they'll hide it, and then they'll seek other resources so that nobody can find out. Just kind of lie on top of lie to avoid the burden of the family and friends as well. So that would be such a heavy thing to carry for someone who is struggling with addiction. It's like, where can I turn to?
0:06:47 - (Natalie Moujalli): I don't feel I can turn to the people I love the most, because then they have to suffer in this with me now. It's their problem also.
0:06:54 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah. So I think Monsignor was talking about that it almost becomes this vicious cycle when you're trying to protect your family from it and want to continue to function and do all the right things and really protect them from this deep, dark secret, because you know it's going to be another burden and a stress for them. So often it comes from a pace of love and protection rather than just trying to save them deliberately.
0:07:23 - (Eddie Reaiche): It's sad, but we got to remember, too, can have a happy ending. So it doesn't always, like, I know the picture that we're painting is pretty gloomy. You know, when they first walk in, they don't see hope. They have no idea where it's going to come from. All they can see is the bleak nature of their life and think they're going to end up either at their parents house or his parents house, whoever, or even on the streets. They have no concept, but there's always hope.
0:07:54 - (Eddie Reaiche): They just can't see it. But then it's our job to sort of help them or just handhold for a bit to say that you're going to get support and we'll be with you till we get to that stage where you can see some light.
0:08:08 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah. So in a lot of ways, keeping it hidden whilst you. If you are struggling with this and this is something you identify with whilst keeping it hidden might feel like a way to protect your family, it's not because inevitably it's just causing more damage and more secrecy, but reaching out and opening up can really lead to opportunities to heal together and to come up with solutions together.
0:08:35 - (Natalie Moujalli): So, deb, I'm gonna point the mic to you. I'm just wondering, like, as family and friends, what we can do to help people feel comfortable to come forward. You know, like, what are some of the things that we can do to encourage that. That opening up, that vulnerability that, hey, I'm struggling. How do I get help here? What do you think? Like, we could do, honestly?
0:09:00 - (Debbie Draybi): Like having these conversations, having Monsignor in the last couple of episodes, really talk about the stages that he goes through where, you know, it's not. Getting help is not about being put under the microscope and being scrutinized or judged. It's about coming to someone who's helping. You almost put up a mirror to see the things that are blinding you. It's about starting off with a small conversation and then building on it.
0:09:32 - (Debbie Draybi): It doesn't have to be full blown treatment where you're actually scared of what's going to happen and what that's going to look like. I mean, even Eddie, you mentioned in the last episode about the thing that's most effective in getting help and treatment is connection building a relationship, that therapeutic relationship. So it's not something that is going to be done to you, it's going to be done with you gently and gradually.
0:09:59 - (Debbie Draybi): So it's not going to happen, you know, in the first session, but coming in with an openness and a vulnerability to talk and then seeing where it leads. Both of you know more than me that there's no magic solution. It does take time. Difficult conversations get easier the more we practice them. So that first session's gonna be hard. It's gonna be scary. But the conversations happen like the ones we demonstrate to you every session, every podcast we have.
0:10:29 - (Debbie Draybi): Starting a new conversation, that's really hard. You know, it's like saying something out loud for the first time.
0:10:35 - (Natalie Moujalli): So it's exactly like what we were talking about with our episode on avoidance. And the only thing to avoid is avoidance itself. So that really feeds into. Yeah, I know. I heard it from a very wise man. So it feeds into addiction though, doesn't it? Because you're doing all these behaviors that you can't stop, and then you're avoiding people, knowing about them, talking about it, disclosing it, so they really do all feed into each other.
0:11:05 - (Eddie Reaiche): I want to add to what you were saying as well, Deb. How do we make it inviting for people to seek help? And the analogy I came up with in my head, for no reason whatsoever, hope it works, is like when you go to a church during the day, not when there's a service, but the doors are open, you kind of feel welcome to go in there. No one's going to ask you what you're there for. No one's going to speak to you. No one's going to judge you.
0:11:31 - (Eddie Reaiche): And the same, when you come to see a therapist, they're not going to judge you as much as people will think. No, no, no. People will judge me. You're thinking about how you think. You're not thinking about how a therapist think. Because the minute someone comes in and after they've read you the right act of confidentiality and what's involved, it's kind of like, why are you here? Because, and it really doesn't matter while you're there, because you're going to be treated no matter what you're there for, and it doesn't matter what you say, you're not going to be judged.
0:12:05 - (Natalie Moujalli): I like that analogy of walking into the church or walking into the therapist's room, because in both places, you will be met where you're at, and then you will walk together with God, with your therapist. They'll meet you where you're at, and you'll journey together forward.
0:12:23 - (Debbie Draybi): And I was thinking about what you're saying. There's no judgment here. We're here to listen with an openness to understand so we can help. Now, I know that's very rare. We don't experience that in our day to day. We often are very judged by we judge other people and we judge each other. If you think about your daily conversations, whether it's with your partner or with your boss, often there's a lot of judgment that goes on, and there's not often a lot of good listening because unfortunately, that's how we're wired in our day to day.
0:12:56 - (Debbie Draybi): So to have that therapeutic conversation where you have someone there listening to you, to really understand you, they've got no judgment, they've got no preconception, they've got no other agenda other than to understand you, to help you, that's for some people. They've never, ever had a conversation like that. So it's a really new experience. And to even imagine that that's possible is hard when they've lived a life of judgment and blaming and scrutinizing. Or just think about your conversations you had today.
0:13:29 - (Debbie Draybi): How many of them were judgment free?
0:13:32 - (Natalie Moujalli): Actually, we're our worst judges. Like, we judge ourselves the worst, and even our own thoughts are judgmental on ourselves. So you could imagine how that feeds into the story we run in our head, that we're not good enough and that we've failed and that we're a burden, you know, so that all of those thoughts and those judgments stop us from moving forward and seeking that help and opening up in a vulnerable way.
0:13:57 - (Debbie Draybi): Yes. So if we're not even doing it in our internal conversation, our dialogue, the stories we tell ourselves, are often very judgmental and harsh ones. So to be able to let someone in and show kindness to us and compassion and openness, it's hard to do when we're not even able to do.
0:14:17 - (Natalie Moujalli): It for ourself, hard to accept when we don't think we deserve it.
0:14:21 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah. Yeah.
0:14:23 - (Eddie Reaiche): And this is one of the biggest problems, because they don't feel that they're worthy. They don't feel they're worthy of help. They don't feel they're worthy of attention. And when they sit in front of you and you listen with compassion and empathy, and they tell you their story and you repeat it back, sometimes it's the first time anyone's ever really listened to them. And I've had people break down because they didn't know what it was like to be heard.
0:14:49 - (Eddie Reaiche): And so I feel for those people, and you kind of just keep going along those lines and then just move into the conversation, because for the first time, they're allowed to be vulnerable, and someone will be treating them with sensitivity and hand hold them through the process. It's almost cathartic when that happens. And I think it's a beautiful thing when you actually are part of that. And I think that's a gift that God gives us, that we can be as therapists and that you can do that. And I love that.
0:15:24 - (Eddie Reaiche): That keeps me going for on and on and on and on.
0:15:29 - (Natalie Moujalli): I think you talked about worthiness, and that's really important because often people do think I'm not worthy of the help because I got myself into this mess. Why should I trouble everyone to help me get out of this mess? But the issue with addiction is that you believe you're in control and you're really not. And we've talked about that physiologically psychologically, you're actually. There hits a point where you're no longer in control.
0:15:55 - (Natalie Moujalli): So the fact that we think possibly we're not worthy of the help because we got ourselves into this mess is actually not real.
0:16:03 - (Eddie Reaiche): Here's something for that. It's funny how so many people think that if they think it, then it's real. It's true. A lot of our thoughts. Cause we have between seven and 10,000 thoughts a day. A lot of them are lies.
0:16:16 - (Natalie Moujalli): I think women, maybe 32,000.
0:16:19 - (Eddie Reaiche): No, you're talking about words. I'm talking about thoughts.
0:16:22 - (Natalie Moujalli): No, I'm talking about thoughts also.
0:16:25 - (Eddie Reaiche): Probably both men probably have about ten or three. Come on. I was being gentle.
0:16:34 - (Debbie Draybi): Now they're having this data conversation and what metrics we're using. But, yeah, I think it's really powerful, the stories we tell ourselves. And I know that I listen to a lot of podcasts because, you know, I need to train myself, but I learn from them a lot, too. And one that I like to listen to is Esther Perel. And she often talks about. Cause she interviews couples in her podcast, and she often talks about the success of a therapy session is that people come in with a narrative, with a story, and if they leave with a different one, then that's a good session.
0:17:14 - (Debbie Draybi): So being able to unpack some of the stories we tell ourselves, that's part of the goal of getting help. Again, it's not rocket science. It's being able to share our inner thoughts, share those stories, you know, share the things that we say about ourselves in our head. We may have never shared them before. To hear them out loud, to share them with a professional who's able to give us a different version, an objective version. Yeah. And a version that's not tied to any other agenda, but simply to understand.
0:17:48 - (Debbie Draybi): And then maybe there's an opportunity there. We leave with it a slightly different one, a one that's a bit kinder to ourself. Because you're right, predominantly, we don't feel like we're worthy and we don't feel like we're good enough. And so we find things to just cover that up more and more.
0:18:06 - (Natalie Moujalli): Distract ourselves, escape from our thoughts, our pain, our emotions.
0:18:11 - (Eddie Reaiche): So here's one. Imagine a good therapist would be creating a safe environment so we can remove all our masks, our full self, and be comfortable and safe in being who we are.
0:18:24 - (Natalie Moujalli): Warts and all.
0:18:25 - (Eddie Reaiche): Warts and all.
0:18:27 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah. And to understand that. I remember years ago, my dad was curious about my job and what I do, and he said, does talking actually really help? And he said it in Arabic, like, you just talk to people all day, how is that going to be useful? But to understand that talking does, there's a whole evidence base around talking therapy and how useful it can be to be able to say things out loud for the first time, maybe, and also.
0:18:56 - (Natalie Moujalli): Unload all the things that you're carrying by yourself and unload them in a safe space where you can leave them.
0:19:04 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah, exactly. That's an opportunity, like you said, instead of burdening someone that you think your loved one that you think has already got enough on their plate, you can do that with a professional and leave it there, park it there, and something that you can work on in the next session and it's okay.
0:19:23 - (Eddie Reaiche): The end. It's okay for the partner to unload, for the person who's going through the addiction to unload and know that it's okay. And they're not going to get that judgment. They're not going to get anyone telling them what to do. I mean, the therapist can easily say, okay, stop taking drugs, stop gambling, stop smoking, stop drinking, stop whatever. No one's going to do that therapist is going to say, what is it in it for you? Why do you want to give up? Isn't it good? Then why would you want to give up and start using motivational interviewing and trying to find out what's behind it and what keeps them there?
0:19:59 - (Natalie Moujalli): Often it's very useful for the partner of the person that's struggling with the addiction because there's that third person in the room who's seeing what they see in a very unfiltered way. And it can be very calming for them and reassuring, like, you know, someone else knows what's going on to the degree that it's going on. And I'm not alone in this. So, you know, as much as it is for the person who's struggling with the addiction, it's probably even more so for the person who's supporting them through it.
0:20:30 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah. Oh, look, I think that's absolutely so powerful. And that the power of the witness, having someone there alongside of you witnessing your pain.
0:20:42 - (Natalie Moujalli): Such a strong word, witness.
0:20:44 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah. And, you know, a safe one that's not going to share it. That's not going to be part of the gossip meal or, you know, that you don't have to see or accidentally bump into. I think having that containment really does help because, you know, we have analogies and ideas even in our faith around bearing witness and how powerful that can be to know that you're not alone. And someone has seen it and witnessed it for you, and that witness can carry it for you, too.
0:21:15 - (Natalie Moujalli): And they make it true for you. You know, if it's been witnessed by someone else, it makes it true. It makes it real.
0:21:24 - (Eddie Reaiche): And that witness that's there would sort of discuss exactly what they were told, and they wouldn't go back and condemn or judge them or anything like that. They understand what they're saying, but they understand a lot more because they're not only listening to the spoken word, they're listening. They're watching your behavior. They're watching what you're doing. So they look for the spoken and the unspoken word.
0:21:46 - (Eddie Reaiche): And then when they give it back to you and say, you realize that you're doing this and you realize this is a thing, and so you can't hide anymore. But then again, you realize there's not. What's the point of hiding? It's not helping. And so people become more comfortable in divulging what they're going through, and then that becomes therapeutic in itself.
0:22:05 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah.
0:22:05 - (Natalie Moujalli): Yeah.
0:22:06 - (Debbie Draybi): It's almost like that. I think I used it last time, that analogy of the mirror looking in the mirror. And that's where the therapist can be, that safe mirror. Because I know people do avoid looking in the mirror. It's quite confronting. And they build their whole life around avoiding that reflection. Being able to have someone mirror that for them in a safe way. And as you said, it is okay. That's a really strong statement. To be able to get permission to feel what we feel.
0:22:36 - (Debbie Draybi): I mean, we have a whole campaign around are you okay? Day. And, you know, there's really strong evidence around the importance of permission giving to feel what we feel. And sometimes we don't allow ourselves, but we can get it when we get it from someone else. If the professional says it's okay, then it must be. It validates, and it gives us that permission to feel.
0:22:57 - (Natalie Moujalli): Permission to feel and permission to tell the truth, you know? And that's really what the goal is, to live in truth. There's a saying I saw recently, and it said, truth needs to be softened by love, and love needs to be softened by truth. They so interdependent on each other, you know, one in the same. And we need to choose to live that way.
0:23:24 - (Eddie Reaiche): We need a Natalie book.
0:23:26 - (Debbie Draybi): I know we do.
0:23:27 - (Eddie Reaiche): To write these quotes down.
0:23:28 - (Natalie Moujalli): It's just instagram.
0:23:31 - (Debbie Draybi): You need your own page then. Oh, look. Thank you both. I think this has just been a really powerful conversation, bringing it all together around the importance of navigating help seeking and what that looks and feels like, and I hope that we've demonstrated that. And I wondered, as we wrap up, if there's one message that you'd like to leave for our listeners who may be grappling with this and really curious of what it would be like to reach out and seek help, what's a key message that you'd like to leave for them?
0:24:05 - (Eddie Reaiche): I think since I invented this analogy of the church, I want to leave people with the fact that you're always welcome to come to therapy.
0:24:14 - (Debbie Draybi): Natalie, what are your thoughts?
0:24:16 - (Natalie Moujalli): I think I'm gonna go with the truth and say that as a therapist, I've seen the benefits of unloading in a therapy room, and also I've seen the benefits as a client, and that unloading is compares to not much else, to be honest, you will walk out feeling a lot lighter.
0:24:40 - (Debbie Draybi): And I think it's really important that we model that as therapists. We have our own therapy, and that's really important that we, too, need help and have experienced that and have been on the other side, sitting on the other side of the table or chair.