[TRANSCRIPT]
0:00:00 - (Debbie Draybi): Warning. This episode contains confronting topics and issues. If you need help, please contact beyond Lu. For more information and resources, please visit our website, hshl.org dot au dot. Welcome to finding Sanctuary. Our shared conversations into how we think and feel and how we find peace and comfort in daily life. We get together with experts to chat about all things mental health, getting insights and understanding on the struggles of life.
0:00:34 - (Debbie Draybi): My name is Debbie Draby and I'm a psychologist and a proud maronite woman and a mother of three children. And I'm passionate about bringing people together to share their stories, to support each other through life and all its beauty and all its pain. I look forward to hearing from you in this podcast series as we engage in conversations around our shared experiences as a community. We love to hear what you think of the podcast, so please subscribe, share like and comment wherever you get your podcasts.
0:01:07 - (Debbie Draybi): Welcome everyone to another episode of Finding Sanctuary. It's Debbie Draby here and I've got Monsignor Shora with me and Eddie Reich. We're really coming together again today, having a conversation, probably a bit more of a difficult one in terms of understanding and sharing stories and experiences with a addictions. I know we've talked about it in our episodes previously around the challenges that we see in the community, that we've experienced with families and patients that we've worked with.
0:01:39 - (Debbie Draybi): So today we thought we'd start off with a bit of a conversation around honouring the stories of people who have experienced addictions, whether it's them personally or their family members or their friends. We just want to pay respect to those experiences and bring them to the surface in a compassionate way because we understand that is something that has touched all our lives, whether it's directly or indirectly. Monsignor, I know that you've got an incredible experience and connection with the community and people are drawn to you, particularly where there is suffering and where there's pain.
0:02:12 - (Debbie Draybi): And I'm wondering about the families and could be individuals that have come to you in crisis, where there has been a pattern of addiction, whether it's with them directly or a family member. I'm just wondering what are some of the things you witness that happens that leads them to that sort of life and that experience which can really be very consuming?
0:02:34 - (Monsignor Shora): Yeah. Thanks, Deb. Good to be here with you and Eddy talking about this very important area of addictions, you know, and addictive behaviours that can, you know, afflict so many people. And I must say in all my counselling, experience and spiritual guidance experiences, especially touches there everyone who is afflicted in this area, they always see something wonderful about them, that they're in many ways very good hearted human beings, but just this part of them is trapped in addictive behaviour.
0:03:04 - (Monsignor Shora): Many that are in relationships, that are married and have families and have responsibility, some that have grown up in Lebanon, some that carry trauma from the experience of growing up in war in Lebanon. A lot of men in their, say, their fifties now, their fifties and sixties now living in Australia, that in their youth they grew up where there was a lot of disruption in life and trauma and violence and civil war.
0:03:28 - (Monsignor Shora): So a good number of them have undiagnosed post traumatic stress and they have come to Australia. If they haven't linked with some form of gambling or addiction in Lebanon, they've linked with it here, they've come here and they've been exposed to it and it's become part of their coping. I think in all the people that have opened up to me and come to me for help of their families and that we discover some sort of trauma or wound that's been part of their life journey.
0:03:56 - (Monsignor Shora): The addictive behaviour has been a way of coping with that, covering the pain. As I said, people often in some ways, are trying to operate quite well and decide to try striving in some areas to be a good husband, to be a good father, to provide and to do, to function. And yet, through the pain of what they've been through, they're just trapped into addictive behaviour as a way to cope and survive. So that's what I found, too, as we were talking a bit beforehand, off air, you know, that some of them have seen it in the way their parents have coped and they've copied it.
0:04:30 - (Monsignor Shora): So they've seen that behaviour as a, you know, they've carried it on in that way. It's not necessarily someone who's way off track in life. It's often people that are part of the mainstream of our community and it does have an impact, even though they're. It's helping them cope or survive, the negativity of it has an impact on the relationships and the families.
0:04:53 - (Debbie Draybi): Just as you're talking, you know, I'm getting this image of people really trying their best to support their families, to fulfil their roles and to take on the responsibilities as adults, you know, whether it's parenting or being a partner and being a responsible citizen and being part of the community. But often what you're saying is, you know, there's a history and a background of trauma, of stresses where really they're looking and they're desperate for something to help them cope, to manage all the different competing priorities and pressures that they're under.
0:05:27 - (Debbie Draybi): Thank you for that, you know, for sharing that and for giving us the this whole person view, not just the addiction itself, but understanding someone and their journey and what they go through. And unfortunately, it leads them down a path. It's not the best coping strategy, but perhaps helps them to get on with their day to day and to cope with the pressures and to almost put whatever trauma they have aside as much as they can to get on with life.
0:05:54 - (Eddie Reaiche): I just want to reinforce some things, Monsignor said. I always see my clients as human first. I don't look at their condition, I don't worry about what they're going through in life, not to this point, because I want to see who they are. And then I want to find out about the challenges of their addiction that they have, because it doesn't dictate who they are, it's just a problem or a challenge they have in life.
0:06:18 - (Eddie Reaiche): And then when you hear their story, you realise a lot of them have come from trauma, sexual abuse, and this is their way of coping with it. The bad memories, how do I get through this? And then there are people who have become addicted to certain substances because of pain medication. They hurt their back and they were given pain medication. They got that euphoria that comes with the pain medication, and then they become addicted. And that's one of the highest numbers of addictions right now, is pharmaceutical drugs.
0:06:50 - (Eddie Reaiche): And then there's people who became addicted to substances because that was the environment they grew up in. And so as they grew, they saw it as a coping mechanism that they learned from their family, like you were saying, monsignor. And so in turn, they took on an addictive behaviour, whether it be drugs, alcohol, smoking or even gambling. We come across a lot of these people and they've all got a sad story. They've all got something that they've come to, and some are still trying to work out where they fit in and whether or not they should, it is a problem because they're all similar in when they say that I don't understand, it only affects me, it doesn't affect anybody else.
0:07:33 - (Eddie Reaiche): And they just don't have that view outside of themselves on how it affects their family and friends. And it's really interesting to see their perception of what's going on. And the reality that they have is a little bit skewed. I've had a lot of people come through the doors and I've seen some really great results. And to me, they're one of the greatest heroes that I've ever met. How they can turn their life around, because having an addiction has to be a massive adversity in their life, particularly when it comes to couples. And two, that I've got in the back of my mind now came back from cocaine addictions, and now they're both celebrating their first child and having a great family life, but they turned their life around.
0:08:15 - (Eddie Reaiche): We sort of set them on a path, but they did all the hard work. And I think things like that are really important.
0:08:22 - (Debbie Draybi): Thinking about both of you and reflecting on, you know, this common theme of they're looking for ways to heal, whether it's physical pain, as you said, you know, there could be a physical injury or an emotional one where there's, you know, trauma related to abuse or war or this common theme of looking for ways to heal and to soothe that pain. And the challenge is finding ways to do that that are healthy and that don't impact them in negative ways, because, you know, the impact, yes, they might be healing one pain, but they're creating a whole series of other ones, aren't they? And that can be the challenge.
0:08:58 - (Eddie Reaiche): Sometimes there are patterns. When you sit down and you find out about an addiction, you find out that this addiction doesn't occur until they do. Like, they might go drinking, and then when they start drinking, then that leads on to cocaine use, and then you have to work out what their cycle is and see what they have to do when they go drinking. And then they gamble.
0:09:19 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah. So it's not something that happens overnight. It's something that can evolve.
0:09:23 - (Monsignor Shora): Oh, it does.
0:09:24 - (Debbie Draybi): And patterns, whether it's observed behaviors, things that they're modeling from their childhood or even from their friends. And they get into these rituals, almost drinking. Then there's the cocaine, and then there's the other cocktail of party drugs or whatever it might be that they start to.
0:09:43 - (Monsignor Shora): Yeah, some of the drugs and some of those with drugs and alcohol and with gambling often have started socially. Oh, we did it, or we tried it, you know, tried it with a few of my friends and I did a bit more, and then I got hooked or something happened, then I start to use it more. And, yeah, it starts off sometimes in that social environment because a few might be doing it or friends are doing it, and then it becomes, yeah, I adapted as a coping mechanism.
0:10:08 - (Eddie Reaiche): You know, I think it's important to realize nobody wants to have an addiction. No one wants it. If you ask anyone what was your career choice in school? No one's going to say, I want to be addicted to something when I grow up. It's not something anybody wants. I remember a movie called Candy, I think it was. It's an australian movie. And there's a really good line that said that when someone can give up, they don't want to, but when they want to, they can't.
0:10:36 - (Eddie Reaiche): And that's summed up addiction for me, because by the time people say, I want to give it up, they really don't have. It's now got a hold on them and they can't do it. So a lot of these people are fallen for that reason and don't know how to get out of it. And it's very painful. I think people realise how painful it is to try and stop. You can't just stop taking cocaine. You can't just stop drinking alcohol. You can't just stop gambling. It's not that simple.
0:11:04 - (Eddie Reaiche): It's simple for a person that's not addicted to anything to say these things. But anyone with addiction knows that it's not that simple.
0:11:14 - (Debbie Draybi): What do you think makes it so complicated? Because, yeah, from the outside it does look like, okay, you know, if you want to stop, you should be able to, if you have that desire and that intention to stop. But there's a lot that makes it complicated. I'm wondering if you want to talk a bit about that. Now.
0:11:31 - (Eddie Reaiche): What people don't realize is, when we're addicted to a substance, let's use a substance, even alcohol. There are physical changes that occur in the brain, and there are chemical changes that occur as well. Now, because of these changes, you no longer have control. It's almost like your brain says, I need this to survive. And so everything else doesn't count. Because if I don't have this, I'm gonna die.
0:11:59 - (Eddie Reaiche): And the worst part is, if they think, no, I'm gonna stop. And then they start having the withdrawal symptoms. They really do feel that they're gonna die. And so that cycle begins again where you take it and you feel so much better. And the problem is, we start talking about tolerance levels, because people have a certain amount of drugs and they feel great, and then they chase that same feeling, but they realize they have to have a little bit more, a little bit more, just to get the same feeling.
0:12:29 - (Eddie Reaiche): And your body, it takes it on board and remembers, and remembers and remembers. And then you do nothing but really focus on getting that next substance or that next thing that you need. And you believe, you truly believe within yourself, that you can't survive. And nobody who says you will survive, they will never believe anybody who says you will survive because they don't believe it. And their body is saying one thing.
0:12:56 - (Eddie Reaiche): And we all know when our body says, you're tired, you say, I'm tired, even though you can do more. But if your body says it's tired, then you believe it. If your body says, I need drugs, then you go, okay, I need drugs. So I think there's a lot of evidence that supports the physical changes in the brain because of addiction.
0:13:15 - (Monsignor Shora): The other thing that I would add to this that makes it hard to deal with is that with addiction, because it is trying to cover a trauma or a pain or emptiness, depression or anxiety that people don't like, that we don't like, because trying to cover them, we actually then cover up the behaviour, the coping, we sort of sense. So there's a lot of. Especially with gambling or even with drug use, there's a lot of hiding of it or lying about it, and it's cover, it's not intentioned to be lying, but it's covering. So often a person can be actually in an addiction and no one knows.
0:13:50 - (Monsignor Shora): Their marriage partner might not know for many years. So that because of that not knowing and that covering, that stops being able to work on it. The person has that culture of covering it up and it's isolated, it stays isolated. So that's where a person also stays trapped in it.
0:14:09 - (Debbie Draybi): And often you do hear stories. I know. I've worked with people that no one in their life knows, and they make a very conscious effort to keep it away and to almost try and protect others from that. And a lot of it has to do with that shame and guilt and almost feeling like they're betraying others.
0:14:27 - (Monsignor Shora): So the habit, then it becomes a long term coping. So it means it's going to take that extra effort to try and to deal with it and becomes more set in our body. Yeah. Whereas maybe if it was something that sometimes they say, although it's difficult, like, for instance, gambling, someone can hide gambling for so much longer until there is a financial problem, like so.
0:14:49 - (Eddie Reaiche): Yeah.
0:14:50 - (Monsignor Shora): So a man who, you know, can hide, it's not until, well, hang on, we're running out of money here. Why are we running out of money? And that could be ten years down into a marriage where it's, you know, pornography can be a bit like that. It can be so hidden and then so long term, then to break it becomes a bigger challenge. Sometimes the drug use and the alcohol, they're a bit harder to hide. You know, you'll see someone if they don't come home for three days, if they've.
0:15:17 - (Monsignor Shora): After they've had a bender or they've had too much to drink, it's sort of out there a bit more. But sometimes, yeah, the other ones can be so well hidden. I know people where they were married for 15 years. They had no idea until there was this massive. The house is getting repossessed.
0:15:33 - (Debbie Draybi): Especially when it's been, as you said, something that's been going on for a very long time. It gets harder and harder to be open about it. And it's this vicious cycle of guilt and shame and fear, and that really takes over, doesn't it? Yeah.
0:15:48 - (Monsignor Shora): And you do it more to cover that guilt, shame. You want to fix it up and make up or run away from it.
0:15:54 - (Eddie Reaiche): I remember there was a chap who was addicted to heroin. There was a lot of guilt and shame around being addicted to heroin. And he would even break into homes to try and finance his addiction. And I said, how did you cope with that? And he goes, well, as soon as I started feeling any guilt or shame with whatever I did, I just have another shot of heroin and it would take it away. So that just compounded the issue to cover it up. Like you said, it reinforces that cycle.
0:16:25 - (Debbie Draybi): Look, as always, when we come together, you bring to life these issues that we all struggle with at some point in our life. And I'm sure with our listeners, they can really identify with some of your stories and what you've shared. And I just want to just acknowledge those that are struggling, that is isolated and, as we always comment, those that are suffering in silence, to know that they're not alone, to honour their commitment to strive to be good people. As you mentioned, Monsignor, these behaviours and these patterns often come from the need to cope and to contribute and to take on big responsibilities when, you know, you have limitations and struggles.
0:17:07 - (Debbie Draybi): So I'm wondering for both of you, you know, I know in the next episode, we're going to talk more about identifying what is an addiction and talking about a bit more about the physical and the biological side of it. But I'm wondering, to wrap up this session, whether you had some messages for those out there that are struggling, you know, who want to seek help but really don't know how.
0:17:29 - (Monsignor Shora): I'd just like to reinforce them. If they do have this struggle, it's part of them. It's not all of them that they are, especially us, as people of faith. They're a child of God. They're valued. Yeah, it's part of them. The more that they can see that and then say, there's no that I've got to trust. Where can I look out now to trust, to get some help to work on this part of myself, you know, it's not all myself. I've got a lot of other good gifts and a lot that I can bring to help me with that, to not let that part dominate my whole self.
0:18:03 - (Monsignor Shora): Where can I have that trust, that humility to come to, you know, seek.
0:18:07 - (Debbie Draybi): Guidance and seek help and almost like what you were saying before, to bring out that hidden part of themselves, because it's that fear and that shame that really keeps it hidden, but being able to reach out and to bring it out, because, like you said, it doesn't define them, but it is something that's a part of them and it's not.
0:18:26 - (Monsignor Shora): The most important part of it, but.
0:18:28 - (Debbie Draybi): It'S quite a dominant part when it remains hidden, isn't it?
0:18:31 - (Monsignor Shora): That's right, it does. Whatever stays hidden keeps growing and expanding. But the more we put it in the light and, you know, get help and guidance about it, the more we can manage it. We master it. It doesn't master us.
0:18:43 - (Debbie Draybi): And the more we can release it, the less control it has over us.
0:18:46 - (Monsignor Shora): Yes, exactly.
0:18:47 - (Eddie Reaiche): Yeah. Monsignor, you've put it beautifully about being one part of you, not all of you. I think it's an important message for people to take away because people like Monsignor, myself, any psychologist or counsellor, or anybody who deals with people who struggle with addiction sees you the same way. They don't see you as. And I hate this word, but as an addict, it doesn't dictate who you are. They know there's someone there who's struggling, just as someone could be struggling with anxiety or depression.
0:19:17 - (Eddie Reaiche): They're not an anxious person or a depressed person. They are a person who have challenges with addiction, depression or anxiety. And that's how we all see you. And I think it's really important that you understand that we don't see you as anything else. And it's important that you know that there is help out there. And there are people who are keen, really keen to help you, but you need to seek help.
0:19:42 - (Eddie Reaiche): If you know somebody who you think needs help, until they're ready, they can't be helped. We can only help people who want to help themselves. They don't want to help themselves. They're not ready yet. Doesn't mean they won't be at some point stage, but they're not ready yet. So I think that's really important. And it's very difficult to tell wives or husbands or mothers or any parents when they want us to help their kids or their loved ones.
0:20:08 - (Eddie Reaiche): But if they're not ready, we can't help them. But when you're ready, there's a heap of people that can't wait to help.
0:20:16 - (Debbie Draybi): You through this and understanding Eddie and what you said before, the stories of recovery, people that have come out, reached out and the incredible journey of recovery that they've had where they're able to turn their lives around and to fully embrace their responsibilities. You mentioned them becoming new parents, but embrace it in a way where they can more connected with their families rather than using whatever addiction they might have to cope. But it just perpetuates their isolation and their disconnection.
0:20:49 - (Debbie Draybi): So what I'm hearing a really big message is reach out, don't suffer alone. We all grapple with pressures and stresses in life, and when we're able to share them, it really enables our opportunity to reconnect with ourselves and with other people who can help us heal and who have perhaps been on that journey as well. I hope this episode has helped you find sanctuary in this exciting journey of life.
0:21:20 - (Debbie Draybi): All of the resources we've mentioned in this episode are found in the podcast notes. If you need some assistance with any of the topics discussed in today's episode, then please visit our website, hshl.org dot au dot. If you have any thoughts, comments or ids, please leave us a comment on Spotify. Alternatively, send us an email@adminhshl.org dot au dot. You and your mental health matters to us and we hope you get one step closer in finding sanctuary.
0:21:54 - (Debbie Draybi): Bye for now.