0:00:04 Debbie: Welcome to finding sanctuary. Our shared conversations into how we think and feel and how we find peace and comfort in daily life. We get together with experts to chat about all things mental health, getting insights and understanding on the struggles of life. My name is Debid Drabby and I’m a psychologist and a proud maronite woman and a mother of three children. And I’m passionate about bringing people together to share their stories, to support each other through life and all its beauty and all its pain.
0:00:33 Debbie: I look forward to hearing from you in this podcast series as we engage in conversations around our shared experiences as a community. We love to hear what you think of the podcast, so please subscribe, share like and comment wherever you get your podcast. I’ve got Debbie Dravy and Monsignor Shr and Eddie Reich, and it’s really good to back. I know we started our very first episode for the season around coming back and reflecting on our experiences in the holidays, and I know what emerged in that conversation.
0:01:09 Debbie: We started to explore some of the pressures that build up in relationships, especially when we’re coming together during the holiday season, where there’s a lot of pressure and expectations. And we started to have a bit of a conversation around how we manage that. And sometimes we tend to avoid conflict, particularly when we know we’re not going to have the time to deal with it or it’s not the right time because there’s a lot going on in the busyness of life, or we think it’s holidays. We should be trying to keep the peace.
0:01:37 Debbie: So I’m wondering if we want to talk a bit about that and explore the impact that that has. You know, that avoidance, but also delaying real conversations, open conversations about things that are tense or, you know, just unpacking some of that tension that does happen, rather than avoiding it, you know? I know. Eddie, you did mention, did you wanna start? You know, was one of your points in the last conversation around the pressures in relationships and some of the expectations and that build up?
0:02:08 Eddie: Well, I work a lot with relationships, and there’s some schools of thought about relationships, and there’s three main relationship types. There’s the avoidant relationship, where people avoid conflict because they’re so scared that if they fight, things will just go out of control and they don’t want to fight in front of the children or for whatever reason they avoid fighting. This is not healthy, but I’ll talk about that in a minute.
0:02:33 Eddie: The other relationship type is the validating relationship, where they always try and meet, discuss, and try and compromise. That’s one that doesn’t, I don’t see very often because they wouldn’t end up in. In my clinic. The other one is the volatile one. They’re the ones that I see the most. And these are the ones where it escalates quite quickly. And there’s anger, there’s avos’there’s. All kinds of things that happen because no one can really control their emotions and because their emotions get out of hand.
0:03:05 Eddie: A lot of people get involved. Families get involved, police get involved. And it gets pretty bad. The one that I want toa talk about is the avoidant ones, because people think if we don’t fight, then everything’s great. But the sad part is, if you keep repressing what’s going on and keep thinking, I’m not going to say, I’m not going toa say. Eventually things just come back and in exponential way. And when it happens, there’s no way.
0:03:33 Eddie: We haven’t learned how to cope with these things. We haven’t got any strategies in place we haven’t thought about. If we have an argument, it’s okay. If you stop talking to each other or go for a walk and then come back, that’s okay, too. But to think that you shouldn’t fight, that’s not the right thing to do. There are strategies for fighting in appropriate way. And look, whether we like it or not, healthy relationships, people fight.
0:03:59 Eddie: Two different people getting together. We make a hotodge pot or a mahluto of different experiences we put into one area. And not all things we see the same. That’s what makes us individuals. So I think it’s really important not to avoid, but to sort of think about ourselves. And learning how to listen is another thing. But I think that’s a whole program in itself about being a great listener in a relationship.
0:04:26 Eddie: But the one thing that I say about avoidance is the one statement I always make is the only thing we should avoid is avoidance itself. Because all that does, it just makes us more sensitive. And when we eventually get there, we don’t know how to guide through it.
0:04:43 Debbie: Yeah. Monsignor, what are your thoughts as you listen to Eddie around that?
0:04:47 Monsignor: I agree with Eddie in what he’s saying. And I would add, too, that sometimes it’s not avoidance, but sometimes we just see when is the right time for, you know. And I know Edie would mean that. That. Yeah, it’s so when re saying avoidance, say, I’m never. I’m notn to talk about this at all. Never, you know, when we shut down. So that’s the one extreme that is unhealthy. The other thing, too, we have to see. Yeah.
0:05:12 Monsignor: When is the right time for the other person that they can hear and we let them know, say, look, there’s something really. I think we really need to talk about when’s gonna be a good time for you, you know, and, you know, when can we make it? And, yeah, in the children, it’s not in the limelight. It’s something we’re not in front of the children. Ye. So that we can have that chance to be able to express and share what’s on our heart and that there can be a little bit of feeling and emotion expressed, as you said, with that, trying to strive to listen, to understand each other, and to have that good space, to be able to actually go through a conversation, finish it, not be rushed by it, and then leave it undone, you know? So it’s sometimes good to see when’s a good time. When a good time’something? Important. We need to make that space.
0:05:57 Monsignor: I find the couples that have no time to talk to each other and make this time to talk about the hard subjects.
0:06:04 Eddie: That’s.
0:06:05 Monsignor: Yeah, you just find it, as you said, and it does. When that’s held in over years, the impact is very draining and actually physically, physically tiring and exhausting. It’s a burden for a person who believes there’s been issues and can’t speak about it, and it’s been avoided by one or both of them. It has a physical impact as well as emotional.
0:06:28 Debbie: It does build up, doesn’t it? You. It’s like, I think we’ve talked about the backpack in the past where, you know, you continue to fill it with whatever tension or stress, and the burden does get heavier and you’re carrying it even. The more you put in there, the more you pack in there, the more you avoid. It just continues to build up, and then we shoulder that tension and that pressure. It’s interesting, as you say, that monign as I reflect. I know, because we’ve done the marriage classes in the past together, and I remember that issue, and that topic came up quite a bit about timing is everything, and being able to think about and explore.
0:07:08 Debbie: Yeah. Sometimes we do avoid because we know I don’t want to open that can of words, and this is gonna be messy, and being open and real takes a lot of vulnerability. And sometimes we don’t want to set ourselves up for failure if we know it’s not the right time. So being intentional about that, and I often used to say, you know, as you said, that about the timing is, you know, we’re intentional when we have complex issues at work and we make a meeting because we know that and we have an agenda and we know that and we set a time.
0:07:40 Debbie: We’re very respectful about the issue because we know it needs and needs that time. And I remember raising that a lot with couples around. Why don’t we do that in our relationships ab, you know, where we make a meeting and we’re intentional about that time where we know that some of the hard stuff has to come out and that avoidance that we work on really well and we perfect. Often we can start letting go of some of that and not setting each other up for faith where there’s that immediacy or the urgency to get it resolved. Nowuse it might not be the right.
0:08:13 Monsignor: Timeong K are around or I’ve had couples sit before me and both of them very professional people and sometimes they’re people. One might manage a company and they’ve got 40 employees, another one, they’ve got to changeain the shops and they, and they say, well, you’re managing this, but you’re not managing your family life, your home life because there is no time set for having these important conversations.
0:08:38 Monsignor: There’s just avoidance happening, you know, and I’ve often used say to them, why don’t you bring that professional skill that you do in your business? Why don’t you bring that skill to home? You know, like to you sit down together, you’re the CEO’s of your home. You know, you’re the parents. You know, it’snna if you don’t meet, wouldn’t you meet with your business partner if there’s an issue, you can’t, you know, so, yeah. So that’s a great tool I’ve often used. And people click with it, say, yeah, o so how do they, how do we do that and do it in a safe way, like make it safe for each other, you know, just like we would in a business, hopefully in a work setting. We want people to share their thoughts because we want to improve.
0:09:20 Monsignor: We want the business to keep improving and growing. That’s the same within our family. We’ve got to say to our f, will explain that to me more. Al right. I want to understand that more. The, yeah. Not shut down anything so that we can see how can we let our family life grow? How can we let our relationships and the well being of our family continue to grow.
0:09:39 Eddie: It’s interesting how you talk about timing. It made me reflect and remember a couple of couples that I’ve had where they won’t fight in front of the children. So they’ll wait till they get to the counselling room and then they let go and I just sit there with.
0:09:53 Monsignor: Popcorn because it’just go at each other.
0:09:56 Debbie: Entertainingeah.
0:09:59 Eddie: But part of the timing is really important. Some people are very conscious about their children. They don’t want to expose them to these things.
0:10:06 Monsignor: Look, some things where there’s a good conversation and, you know where it’s going to that you model to the kids, you know, I say to the parents, you know, where you can say, oh, you know, if you slipped up a little bit in front of the kid, you say, oh, sorry, darling, I slipped up with that. Apologies for that. I said, that’s great in front of the kids. You know that. Yeah, that’s a good thing. But where you might trying to be solving and it might be something about them and you, you’re a little bit unsure. That might be good to have that first and then you might. If the apologies needed or something, some work to happen. Yeah, that can happen.
0:10:38 Eddie: I think that’s important. Yeah, I think that’s very important, monsignor, because kids are. They’re like sponges and their exposure to relationship early on their life is their parents, because that’s what they think a relationship is. And then when they see, if they see their parents fight, not scream and yell, but fight, and then see them resolve it, I think that’s very good for them because they know that there’s ways of resolving these things. It’s really learning things at the same time.
0:11:06 Eddie: So don’t be too scared people out there to fight right in front of your children, but just show them that things can work out, can be worked out as well.
0:11:16 Debbie: I mean, what I’m hearing is, you know, the importance of modelling how we navigate conflict and how we manage our emotions. Being able to do that in front of our kids is really important. And that’s where get. If we do get into that trap of avoidance and kids have never seen an argument or heard mum and dad, you know, have some conflict, it can be very confronting when they do see it all, even as. When they enter relationships as adults, if they’ve not had it, they’ve never navigated or negotiated conflict or seen it, it’s very confronting. So it’s a good opportunity to model.
0:11:54 Debbie: And like you said, monseigne, we’re not perfect. And I think showing our kids our imperfections is a great opportunity. It’s a safe place to do that. And then apologise when we get it wrong.
0:12:06 Eddie: I think on the back of that, the worst that I’ve seen in avoidance when it comes to couples is mum and dad sleep in different rooms. They don’t talk to each other at all and the kids see that and then they get affected by it. Worse, I think, than actually seeing them fight. Because not to see that interaction at all gives them so much for you because they don’t know what that means and what’s going toa happen.
0:12:30 Debbie: Yeah. It’s really that fear of the unknown, isn’t it? There’s a lot of unspoken patterns and behavior. Separate bedrooms, silent treatment, avoiding each other, different meal times. You know, these silent sort of leaves.
0:12:45 Monsignor: Room for so much misinterpretation.
0:12:48 Eddie: Exactly.
0:12:48 Monsignor: In that ide.
0:12:49 Debbie: Yeah. What do these behaviours mean? And what does it mean for the future of our family and the security of our relationship as a family? Yeah. It’s a complicated one, isn’t it? Because, you know, often parents do it with the intention of protecting their kids and just wanting to be together to preserve that. But it gives the kids very conflicting messages because, yes, you might be under the same roof, but there’s a separation and there’s a deafening silence that goes on.
0:13:16 Monsignor: And I think it’s good to give you. Give your partner permission to say, look, please say what’s on your mind, you know? I want you to say what’s on your mind. You might fear I might not like it’don’t.
0:13:26 Debbie: Worry.
0:13:27 Monsignor: Tell me, tell me, you know, I’d like. And that’s good. Where we can give each other permission to say no. Say what’s on your mind. You share it, you know. Yeah.
0:13:34 Eddie: There’s a couple of therapies, Monsignor, where they talk about that, specifically the Gottman and the imargo therapy. They both talk about invitations to a conversation. As long as you don’t have your own agenda. Because then you’ll listen, and then when you listen, and then you can talk back and just say, so this is what I heard you say, pretty much what you do to us all the time, Deb. And so when you repeat that, and then they’re heard, and then they can come back with. Without criticism sometimes. That would be enormous. Step in the right direction, just doing that.
0:14:10 Debbie: Yeah. And being able to model how you balance those tensions. I mean, you can be in the midst of an argument. I mean, as you said, you know, being able to fight well or fight right. Fight right. Thinking about. Yeah. There’s heightened emotions, there’s tension, there’s a lot of negative emotions going on, but in the middle of that, a gesture and a bid for connection, like, do you want a cup of tea? You in the middle of the argument? Yeah, it’s a good, because it then softens it.
0:14:37 Debbie: We’re still connected, but yeah, we can still have an argument. Lovingly. And as you said, monsignor, you’ve said it a couple of times now, and I just want to draw it out. The importance of making it safe for the other person and almost that permission giving, which is so powerful. And some people may not have had that before, where they’ve given permission to be human and to express difficult emotions or say things that they know the other person might not want to hear.
0:15:04 Eddie: I think it’s important to learn something new about your partner. If the minute we think we know our partner back to front, you become complacent. But when we learn more and more, something new all the time, it’s more refreshing than it is.
0:15:19 Debbie: So, you know, thinking about those, some of those strategies of tackling the avoidance, because we all do it, it is safer sometimes to not go there and to avoid conflict, but exploring, you know, coming at it with that mindset of a humble curiosity that there’s things you still don’t know about each other no matter how long you’ve been together. And that’s not a reflection of lack of love. It’s a reflection of that. We’re humans and we evolve and we change and we approach each other with that humility and that curiosity of, who are you?
0:15:50 Debbie: What are you becoming?
0:15:51 Monsignor: Yeah. And we’re a beautiful mystery, you know. So it’s unfolding, you know. Yeah. And look, the things there. Sometimes I say to people, you know, when you think the temperatures getting into six, and I like the think you look, say something. Would you like a cup of tea? You know, look, what if we. Give me five minutes, I’ll finish this and I’ll come and sit down with you, you know, like just when you know you might be going, you know. Yeah.
0:16:12 Debbie: Yeah. There’s small bids for connection.
0:16:14 Monsignor: Just conflict.
0:16:16 Debbie: So powerful.
0:16:16 Monsignor: Ye. Yeah.
0:16:17 Debbie: Just I saw this article that I thought you might be interested in.
0:16:21 Monsignor: Yeah.
0:16:21 Debbie: You know, little things, gestures that will continue to maintain that connection.
0:16:26 Eddie: And it’s really important, actually, it’s essentially the most important component. If you’re fighting and someone gets flooded or you can tell they’re losing control, there is nothing you can do to bring that back. Give them time, because they’ve activated that part in the brain, they, from part of their brain, they do all their thinking is shut down. So nothing good is going to come out of that. So the best thing to do is both of you go for a walk or someone just go outside into the back garden and just sit outside and try and de stress and then come back to it when you’re both back online. I think that’s the way to go.
0:17:07 Debbie: Yeah. Thinking about and exploring opportunities again, not setting each other up for failure. And as you said, you know, there’s that fine line between avoidance and volatile and when you cross it, it’s often very hard to come back. So being able to think about how do we keep it safe, make it safe but also keep it safe. And that often means you need anything. Time out. Yeah. Exploring things that you know is go goingna give yourself a breather and help you come back to your senses and soothe you in a way that, you know, because emotions can take over and we really, like you said, that flood.
0:17:41 Monsignor: I’ve heard some people say, well they had pick a word like vemite break or kitcap break or you know, in our meetings we’ve come up in our leadership team, we come up with it. We’renn have our pause bell and prayer. Bell ding ling ling. You know, when we.
0:17:55 Debbie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean sometimes even those physical gestures, I mean we talk with our bodies and we also can listen with our bodies as well. And being able to understand, pick up on those signals, thinking about when things are starting to heighten. I often have used that example in the marriage classes around when you’re driving in the myths of a storm, you see the hazards and the risks. When you’re emotional, there’s an internal storm going on and sometimes you need to pull over and wait for it to come.
0:18:24 Debbie: And thinking about points you need to pull over in those conversations.
0:18:28 Monsignor: Sometimes it’s where one partnerner doesn’t want to pull over, the other one does. So we do respect, you know, like we say, they’re still with you, we’re going to resolve, but just’s. If we have a pause, I’m with you. Let’s have a pause and let’s start getting 15 minutes. Let’s sit down. Get. Give me half an hour. Give me 15 minutes.
0:18:47 Debbie: Yeah, yeah. Start to recognise that and put, put those pores.
0:18:51 Monsignor: Yeah. Work out some good.
0:18:52 Debbie: Yeah. Put the hazard lights on and just. I. Well, thank you both, as always. These conversations are, you know, so inspiring. Just listening to you both and your wisdom and being able to explore and share your experiences, not just from your practice and with the community. That you work with, but also in your personal lives. I hope that listeners have enjoyed it. And just as we’re wrapping up, whether you had any parting wisdom or messages that you’d like to leave around, you know, thinking about and exploring how we manage and navigate conflict and avoidance in.
0:19:25 Eddie: Relationships, my favourite saying to everybody when it comes to conflict is do you want to be right or do you.
0:19:33 Monsignor: Want to be happy?
0:19:34 Eddie: And that’s your choice.
0:19:36 Debbie: I love your favourite sayings’ided. To get a collection of them now. And monsign, did you have any parting wisdom for our listeners?
0:19:45 Monsignor: It just that it does take courage. Takes courage and to be vulnerable and to believe in your love, believe in your relationship, believe in your partner. And sometimes a good thing is you model what you want. Model at yourself. Start yourself, which is a good way. So if you want your partner to listen, you tell them, all right, I want to understand and as you said, give that feedback. Have I understood you? And that generally that’s the best chance of getting something to grow from the conversation. That’s fruitful.
0:20:14 Debbie: Well, thank you both and I’ll leave you with an extension of Eddie’s parting words is do you want to be right or do you want to be married?
0:20:22 Monsignor: Happy. Happy. Happy.
0:20:24 Debbie: Do you want to be married or do you want to be married?
0:20:25 Monsignor: Married.
0:20:36 Debbie: I hope this episode has helped you find sanctuary in this exciting journey of life. All of the resources we’ve mentioned in this episode are found in the podcast notes. If you need some assistance with any of the topics discussed in today’s episode, then please visit our website, hhl.org dot au. If you have any thoughts, comments or ids, please leave us a comment on Spotify. Alternatively, send us an email at admins ##l dot dot au.
0:21:08 Debbie: You and your mental health matters to us and we hope you get one step closer in finding sanctuary. Bye for now.