[TRANSCRIPT]
0:00:04 - (Debbie): Welcome to Finding Sanctuary. Our shared conversations into how we think and feel and how we find peace and comfort in daily life. We get together with experts to chat about all things mental health, getting insights and understanding on the struggles of life. My name is Debbie Draybi, and I'm a psychologist and a proud maronite woman and a mother of three children. And I'm passionate about bringing people together to share their stories, to support each other through life and all its beauty and all its pain.
0:00:33 - (Debbie): I look forward to hearing from you in this podcast series as we engage in conversations around our shared experiences as a community. We love to hear what you think of the podcast, so please subscribe, share like and comment wherever you get your podcast. Thanks again for joining us for another episode in Finding Sanctuary. It's our final episode for the season. We're continuing our conversation that we started with our wonderful Derek Yeoh around New Year's resolutions, and it was a great opportunity to hear from Derek, his experience with it, some of the challenges, and what it's meant for him and what he's learned from it. So we've got Natalie and Eddie back with us to explore some of the key tips around when we are thinking about our New Year's resolutions. What are some of the things to help guide us to be able to think about ways in which we can set goals that are achievable, but ones that will help us build on our strengths rather than on the things that we might be struggling with?
0:01:40 - (Debbie): What are some of your thoughts around that and some of the key things that you think would be useful for our listeners to hear? Whether it's from your experiences or maybe from some of the literature, what are some of the key points? Nat, did you want to start?
0:01:52 - (Natalie): Yeah. Hi, Deb. Hi, Eddie.
0:01:54 - (Eddie): Hey, Nat.
0:01:54 - (Natalie): I loved hearing the episode with Derek in it because he is the master behind the microphone. So thank you so much for coming in, Derek. I think it's really important to take away from this exactly what you're saying about the foundation. It's like the foundation of any of our progress is acknowledging how far we've come, and then any goals that we set after that is a bonus. It's like, oh, we can improve on our growth just that little bit more. Whether that's 5%, 10%, 90%, it actually is irrelevant.
0:02:28 - (Natalie): It's about what do we acknowledge as here and here to stay in our development, and then whatever comes from that is great. So I think goal setting is actually very healthy. If we do it right, if we do it in a tangible way, if we do it in a measurable way, and if we do it in a way that doesn't reflect who we are as a person more. So things that are a little bit more removed from ourselves could be our career, could be learning a new skill, could be a financial goal.
0:02:59 - (Natalie): Things like that don't really have the same impact on how we see ourselves and don't really define us and also cause high levels of disappointment in ourselves.
0:03:11 - (Debbie): Yeah. So there almost needs to be some level of detachment, like, yeah, these are things that are important to us, but they don't define us. And having a bit of distance from them, because, like anything, when we set out to achieve something, it doesn't always work. And being detached from it can help minimize the crash or the fall when it doesn't have the outcome that we hoped.
0:03:35 - (Eddie): I've always had my own thoughts on resolutions, and every time, I don't know why everyone's always interested in what's your new year's resolution? I usually tell them my new year's resolution is not to have one. But generally what I like to do is because it's a time of resetting, it's a time of thinking forward. Where do I want to be? What do I want to do? It's easy for me to say I want to lose ten kilos or 15 kilos, but I know from the onset that ain't going to happen. And if I get close, I'm only going to put it back on by the end of the year again anyway, when it comes up to Christmas again.
0:04:10 - (Eddie): So my approach has always been philosophical. And by that I mean we're all in a state of becoming. I don't know what, but we're in a state of becoming something. So generally my way of thinking is I want to love more, I want to be present more. The most important thing in my life is my family, so I want to be present with them more, I want to spend more time with them, I want to grow up with my grandchildren more and be more important in their life.
0:04:37 - (Eddie): These are the goals that I like to set for myself, because if I fail in that, I've really failed. And so I really want to make sure that I do that. And I don't want to do that because it's a goal that I've set for myself. Because it sounds artificial then, but I think it's something that at the end of the year I can reflect back and think to myself, that was good, and I'll do it again because I think that's really important for me.
0:05:05 - (Eddie): I think I hear a lot of people who make to reset themselves and spend a lot of time focusing on what they want to achieve next year. And like you all said earlier, and it was so profound, how good would it be? Rather than fixating on what we want to achieve in the next year, fixating is what have we achieved this year? What did we do well in our lives? How have we made the world a better place? How have we made our family better?
0:05:33 - (Eddie): What have we done to bring people together? Where have we shown love? Where have we shown our belief, our Christianity? I think they're things that are really important to us, more tangible than anything else I can ever think of. That's my thoughts.
0:05:48 - (Debbie): Yeah. Thank you. I think being able to think about and reflect on those things and we can integrate them into our goals because they're already things that we're doing well and being able to build on those strengths. And they often say with goal setting, it should be small and incremental change. Don't big, big things. What makes a small and incremental? If it's something that you're already doing or starting to do and you're getting a sense that it's something that aligns with me and it's working.
0:06:18 - (Debbie): My New Year's resolution for many years is not to not set one. It's to talk less. As you can see, I have failed and I continue to fail, but I'm a talker. I don't shut up usually. So what do you do with that? You make a podcast. You do a podcast, you just decide, okay, I'm just going to channel that chattiness in a way that's useful and constructive. Then other people can hear it, too. Don't have to torture my family alone.
0:06:51 - (Debbie): It's a shared torture. The community, it's out there in the world so people can relate to them. So just thinking about that, being playful with that and thinking about the things that we want to change about ourselves, that we don't really like about ourselves, but they're things we're stuck with, unfortunately.
0:07:06 - (Natalie): But what you're doing, Deb, is you're channeling that part of yourself that you want to change. And you're actually turning it from a weakness, a perceived weakness, into a strength, which is a perceived weakness. It's actually a strength and it's a gift to us all. And I think it's really beautiful to be able to shift perspective and go, you know what? I might struggle with talking a lot, but I'm going to use it and use it as my strength and use it to help others.
0:07:34 - (Natalie): That's a gift from God. That's how we're meant to use our gifts to build others up. So that's one concept that you just brought up, but the other is failing. Well, we don't spend enough time discussing that because when we're talking about goal setting, one of the immediate thoughts that comes to my mind is fail. We're going to fail. But there's nothing wrong with failing. We have to fail to succeed.
0:08:00 - (Natalie): What we need to learn and what the generations I think below us need to learn is how to fail. Well, because that is character building also. It's like, yeah, you're going to fail. You're going to get it wrong. It's not going to work out that time. You're not going to achieve all the things you tried. But do we sit and kick ourselves while we're down? Is it a reflection on who we are as a person or did we just not get it this time?
0:08:25 - (Natalie): And that should really just give us more motivation to try again and go again. What's that saying, guys? You only fail when you stop trying.
0:08:34 - (Debbie): And the other one that we've said before is the only failure is the failure to learn and being able to think about embracing failure, getting rid of some of that shame factor that can, I guess, take away from the lessons that we can learn from failure and being able to be open about it and explore it and understand it more. I think if we feel bad and shame or guilt or anger, those negative emotions, we don't have access to the failure in the same way because we're not really exploring it openly.
0:09:09 - (Debbie): We might be trying to cover up in our own head and retell the story in a way that doesn't really reflect what happened, and then we're not going to learn from it properly.
0:09:18 - (Natalie): There's something about failure that is incredibly vulnerable. It's showing someone your weakest side. And isn't that just the most endearing thing to hear that from someone like, I didn't get at that time and I need to do better or I couldn't do it, I'm not capable. That's okay, because you're not capable of everything all the time. We don't have strengths in all areas. We're going to have strengths, we're going to have weaknesses.
0:09:45 - (Natalie): And we need to learn to celebrate those and acknowledge them and not be afraid to say, I can't do that.
0:09:50 - (Debbie): Or I can't do that yet. And I know that listeners, I'm sure a lot of you would be familiar with ideas around that growth versus fixed mindset and being able to understand that if you come at it from that growth mindset, that failure helps us to learn. And it's an iterative process. When we do fail, we can test it again. And whatever we learned from that experience, we can bring it into trying again the next time.
0:10:19 - (Eddie): It's funny, but there is some strength in giving up, because knowing that you're going to give up and dealing with the shame and dealing with the loss of not being able to achieve but having to sit with it means it's really something that's hard to do. And you know, that's what you've got to do. It might be easier to keep going, but to give up because you realize maybe it's not for me. And if I keep trying, just keep getting disappointed.
0:10:45 - (Eddie): So rather than wasting that energy, we could channel that energy into something else.
0:10:50 - (Natalie): That's one of the hardest things we have to do, to sit with ourselves, sit with our feelings, sit with our disappointment. Like people are running from that. We all run from sitting with that discomfort of not really feeling like we're enough.
0:11:05 - (Debbie): Yeah. And I think that that look really resonated with Derek's story and that he so beautifully shared with us around his first career and the first path that he was on. And then to move and to challenge himself and to recognize that it wasn't for him. And what emerged is another pathway that was incredible, that more reflective of his strengths. And we've been able to enjoy that beautifully here in the work that he's done for us. It just shows you that your first career choice may not be your last one. And being able to think about other things that you might be better at or more interested in or enjoy more, I think that's a hard one because especially in our cultures, and definitely Derek reflected that in his family culture, where there's a lot of expectations to stick to, a pathway, particularly a more traditional one that families expect.
0:11:58 - (Debbie): But being able to think about that and explore what you do enjoy, but where your strengths lie. And you can only ever really know that if you try something different, often.
0:12:09 - (Natalie): That redirection is divine providence. That redirection is taking you to where you're meant to be instead of the path you picked out of pressure or expectation. Expectation. That's often the first path we pick.
0:12:25 - (Debbie): Or trying to fit in. Like we talked about in the last few episodes, there's a book called the.
0:12:30 - (Natalie): Second Mountain by David Brooks, and he talks about two mountains that we climb in our lifetime. And the first mountain is very know. You finish school, you meet someone, you start a career, you pick a unicourse, you do all the things that are expected of you and you climb that mountain. And then quite often after you've climbed that first mountain, there's a fall. Because it's not based on authenticity, it's not based on who you are as a person. It's based on the expectations you've come out of young adulthood in.
0:13:02 - (Natalie): So you crash into the first valley, and then there's the second mountain. And the second mountain is based on your life experiences, and it's based on your purpose and your vocation, and it's based on your choice, it's based on wisdom. So you climb that second mountain, and often that's where the joy is rather than the happiness.
0:13:21 - (Debbie): It's such a beautiful analogy to recognize that there's two mountains. It's not just investing in the one and trying to stick to it, because that's the path that was created for you. You can create a new path and use the wisdom from life experience and to recognize that taking that with you will help you pave a new path.
0:13:44 - (Eddie): I've changed careers, yes, that many times in my lifetime, because I was a nursing and midwifery and occupational health nurse and community health nurse. Then I started an IT company around that for 25 years. And then I decided to do counseling. And so now I become a psychotherapist, counselor, and I did that at 56. So I don't think there's a limit. People always think, if I don't do this, what am I going to do?
0:14:09 - (Debbie): Or if I haven't done this by this age, by this age, that's it. I missed the boat. Yeah.
0:14:13 - (Eddie): There are no limits. The limits is what's inside your head, because the rest of it is. It's there. I'm living proof you can do whatever you want. And I don't even know what my next career path will be. And my wife's really worried. But right now I haven't really thought it through. But right now I'm really comfortable where I am. But if I decide I want to do something else, I mean, I'm still at uni, I'm still doing my masters, and I'm enjoying it, and I may decide to do something else, and if I decide to do something else, I'll do it. I'll do it until I can't.
0:14:44 - (Eddie): And I think that's important for people to realize, don't limit yourself because it's only what you do to yourself, but it's not real because there are no limitations around. If you want to do something, you can do it. It just means you need to be motivated, and that's all. The rest is up to you.
0:15:03 - (Debbie): And just to have that openness to. Yes, you may have invested huge portion of your life on one path, but it doesn't mean that you can't divert that, take a different direction. And, I mean, you've talked about multiple careers in very disciplines, but you combine them in all the beautiful conversations that we have with you. You bring all of them with you. And it's not that they got left behind, you still carry them, and they come into your role as a counselor, because it's not just about your training, but it's about your life experiences that.
0:15:35 - (Eddie): Get a headache with the hats, though, when someone comes, it's a medical thing. So you get into the medical side of things and then you psychologically, if there's a problem with their av or something to do with their computer, it's another hat. And sometimes it gets tiring. And the phone calls that you get can be from during a day. Could be anything from someone with a computer problem or someone who's pregnant, doesn't know what's going on, what she should be doing.
0:16:02 - (Eddie): I had one today where she was told that she shouldn't be lying on her back after 20 weeks. And I said, I don't know where you get these statistics from, but don't lie on your back. If it's uncomfortable. If it's comfortable, lie on your back. Because so many people are coming out with so much advice. And the one thing I tell people, always remember there are people in the bush that do whatever they want to do, and no one has tapped them on their shoulder telling them it's wrong.
0:16:29 - (Eddie): You just be you. But I get these phone calls all day, every day. And I'm just glad because to me, it's by the grace of God that I have this. Not because I'm great. And I think I'm always thankful to God for what I have, because he bestowed those gifts on me. Not me, on me.
0:16:45 - (Debbie): So there's an Eddie Reese hotline, is there?
0:16:49 - (Eddie): If you only knew.
0:16:50 - (Debbie): Press one. For midwifery, press two for it, press three.
0:16:56 - (Natalie): No, but it's good, because you're collecting all these transferable skills as you go. You're bringing them with you. You're bringing them along with you. I used to work for Vodafone for ten years, and people still call me to fix their phones. And I say, I'm sorry, but my twelve year old son fixes my phone now, so I've got no idea anymore. But still, now I'm still the Vodafone girl from Maryland.
0:17:19 - (Debbie): Vodafone chick from Maryland. Exactly. Well, thank you for you both. We create these incredible conversations and this dialogue around the richness of both your experiences. And as we draw to a close this season, just thinking about some final messages to our listeners around their resolutions, approach it with courage and to understand that there's no one way, I think, being open to different ideas and being able to one celebrate your achievements, but also think about ways which you want to go that feel right and that reflect your true self and finding ways to reconnect with that.
0:18:00 - (Debbie): So any other sort of final words before we wrap up around New Year's resolutions and some of the conversations we've been having?
0:18:07 - (Eddie): Just be careful with your resolution because it's important to make it real and something that will possibly make a better version of yourself. And that's about all I would say when we get to it.
0:18:21 - (Natalie): And also, don't be too harsh on yourself. You are enough. You're actually more than enough. And the contentment and the peace you can find in really sitting with that will actually encourage growth that you're not even planning for.
0:18:37 - (Debbie): Yeah. So thinking about not just the caution, but the self compassion and being able to celebrate your achievements and who you are. And it's incredible what can emerge from that. So thank you for you both. I've always learned every time we come together, and I really appreciate these conversations and I wish you both a safe new year and hope that you enjoy your celebrations and hope that you stick to your resolutions too, whatever they may be.
0:19:04 - (Natalie): Thank you, Deb. Happy New Year.
0:19:13 - (Debbie): I hope this episode has helped you find sanctuary in this exciting journey of life. All of the resources we've mentioned in this episode are found in the podcast notes. If you need some assistance with any of the topics discussed in today's episode, then please visit our website, hshl.org au. You and your mental health matters to us, and we hope you get one step closer in finding sanctuary. Bye for now.