[TRANSCRIPT]
0:00:04 - (Debbie): Welcome to Finding sanctuary. Our shared conversations into how we think and feel and how we find peace and comfort in daily life. We get together with experts to chat about all things mental health, getting insights and understanding on the struggles of life. My name is Debbie Draybi, and I'm a psychologist and a proud maronite woman and a mother of three children. And I'm passionate about bringing people together to share their stories, to support each other through life and all its beauty and all its pain.
0:00:33 - (Debbie): I look forward to hearing from you in this podcast series as we engage in conversations around our shared experiences as a community. We love to hear what you think of the podcast, so please subscribe, share like and comment wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, everyone, to another episode of Finding Sanctuary. Really excited today to be talking to you as in the lead up to Christmas and as we progressing and we're getting closer to that countdown, that inevitable countdown to Christmas, thinking about using as an opportunity to have a conversation. I've got Eddie Reaiche and Natalie Moujalli joining me.
0:01:17 - (Debbie): Really excited to be talking to them about our experiences during this time of the year. And in preparation for this conversation, I read something yesterday that got me thinking about some of the challenges that we take with us. It's a big time of year. There's a lot of buildup. And the quote said, mental health challenges don't go on holidays. As much as we'd like to leave them behind. They often do stick with us and we take them with us.
0:01:43 - (Debbie): So I wondered from you both in today's conversation if we can explore that a little bit, what that looks like, what some of the challenges we see in ourselves, with our families, but also in our practice, with some of the patients that we're working in, what some of the things we find people grapple with at this time of year, not just with the festivities and the celebrations, but also thinking about coming to end of yet another year and what that means and how we experience that.
0:02:11 - (Debbie): So, Eddie, I thought I might start with you. I know we've been having conversations in our preparation around some of the patterns that you see and the things that get in the way for people to feel connected with their families, but first and foremost with themselves during this time of year.
0:02:28 - (Eddie): Deb, Christmas is one of my most favorite times because I surround myself with people and everything's fantastic. I know everyone we get along with. I come from a modest family. My wife comes from an insanely large family, and so gatherings are huge. But I also noticed that a lot of people, when they come to gatherings tend to do the best they can to fit in. And I think the way they do that is they wear a mask and not be their true selves.
0:03:00 - (Eddie): I see that with some clients, too. This mask wearing is something that I think happens a lot more often than what people think. And it's not until they come home that they sort of settle back and take off that mask. And some people are comfortable taking off that mask. Some people aren't comfortable. The people who aren't comfortable are the ones that I'm most interested in because it sort of dictates a form of them not loving themselves or not thinking they're good enough, which opens up a whole new ray of issues or challenges for them.
0:03:37 - (Eddie): And when it comes to Christmas, it's all about getting together and being part of a family or being part of a group. And these people struggle. They struggle a lot to be part of that group. And I see that. I see it in my practice, and I see it way back when I was nursing and how many people would sort of try and get themselves admitted into hospital just so they could be around people? And they come with the most obscure symptoms, be admitted, but they're all right to go after Christmas.
0:04:13 - (Eddie): So really, the people around us are only a small amount of people. But when you take a step back and have a broader view, you could see a lot more challenges that occur.
0:04:25 - (Debbie): Yeah. So it sounds like there's a lot of pressure to be part of something. And we talk about, you mentioned that need to fit in, but really what's underneath that is that sense of belonging. And sometimes. I was just listening to a podcast the other day with Brene Brown where she talks about that distinction, of that need to fit in. And what we do is often abandon ourselves. We go to great lengths to fit in, but then we don't end up feeling like we belong, which is really what we need, that sense of connection and belonging with others.
0:05:07 - (Eddie): It worries me because I think the harder someone tries to fit in, the more they lose a sense of themselves. That concerns me a great deal. Sometimes it's easy to fit in, and sometimes it's not. But really, it's not about you all the time. Everybody's got their own personality and their own sense of who they want to fit in with. Just because someone doesn't want to talk to them doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you.
0:05:35 - (Eddie): It just means the issue could be with them. And I just wonder, when people get that rejection or they feel that sense of rejection, they take it so personally and they shut down. And that's a fear of mine when I see that, because I think it's really sad when people feel shut down because they feel neglected, rejected. And it happens a lot.
0:05:58 - (Debbie): Yeah. And just thinking about this time of the year, thinking about and exploring some of the challenges, just even in our own community, and being able to the lengths that people go to to feel that sense of fitting in in our community, just even coming to church as an example on Christmas day. I know we've talked a little bit about that comparison of what we do to get ready and to feel like we can fit in to our community, who often go to great lengths to look their best on Christmas day and.
0:06:30 - (Eddie): Spend a lot of money doing that, too.
0:06:33 - (Debbie): How do you think that plays out? Natalie, feel free to jump in. In terms of. I know we've been talking about this around. What are some examples of how that can play out in our community? And I know some of our listeners might be relating to, as we mention it. Yeah.
0:06:46 - (Natalie): Look, I think hearing you talking about the masks, and I'm actually feeling exhausted hearing you talk about it, because I'm thinking to myself, if people are wearing masks all day at all these events, and you know how it bottlenecks at the end of the year, there's event after event and school events, social events, family events. And if you're wearing a mask this whole time and you get home and you're exhausted, what part of you does your family get?
0:07:19 - (Natalie): They get the exhausted part. They get the tapped out part. They get the part that has nothing left to offer them because it's been exhausted and expended on people and events that often don't really matter that much. So I think it's quite as much as I love Christmas and as much as I love what it represents, and I'm an absolute sucker for a Christmas movie. You've got no idea. Like the Netflix list of Christmas movies. I don't care how sad it is, I'll take it if it ends well.
0:07:53 - (Natalie): But it can get extremely exhausting. And what I worry about at this time is that in a time of joy and love and peace and belonging, instead we're getting exhaustion, we're getting stress, and our families, who are very important to us, are getting the worst part of us because we've got nothing left. You were talking about Mass earlier and that Christmas day mass that everyone kind of geese up, especially in the maronite church, to get to. And especially when you've got kids, you've got to make sure you look good your husband looks good and your children look good.
0:08:30 - (Natalie): It's full on sometimes. I've had moments when I'm dressing my kids for these events where we're finally all at church after everyone's yelling at each other and get in the car and are you dressed? And do you have the right shoes on? And then we're standing in church, and I might rub my hand down my daughter's back and feel a tag just hanging off her new dress just tucked in the middle there, thinking, oh, my gosh, we didn't even get a chance to remove the tags. That's how intense it has been, and that's how high the pressure is to get to mass, to look good, to look like that. We've got our together, and sometimes, and.
0:09:10 - (Debbie): Often, we mean, I'm feeling the mental fatigue just even visualizing that effort that you go through. Nat, I think you should come and meet my son. To me, I think your children do test you, and I understand the pressures in our community. My son is not big on going to church, so getting him to church at Christmas is a huge event. So for me, I don't even notice what he wears. As long as you show up.
0:09:42 - (Debbie): Come as you are, and I think that's a huge message. That's the message of Christ. Come as you are. And I think we lose that sometimes. And as much as I've struggled, because I think, oh, my God, he's going in his slides, and he's definitely not his Sunday best, and I think he does that deliberately, but that's who he is. And I think I've learned to embrace it. And just to know that he's there and he's joining the family is such a spiritual experience that it's forced me to accept that and to get rid of that ab and it's embarrassing because he's looking like he just got out of bed sometimes.
0:10:22 - (Debbie): Not quite, but he's definitely not dressed in the way that I was when I was a child. He's not a child. He's a teenager. But it's quite confronting. I've had to let go of some of those expectations, but it's also been quite liberating because it's taught me that it doesn't matter. He's there, and we get to be together, and that's what's important.
0:10:44 - (Natalie): And what more could we want than to bring ourselves and our family to the foot of the cross, especially at a time where we're celebrating the birth of our savior.
0:10:55 - (Debbie): Yeah.
0:10:56 - (Eddie): But the greatest challenge that I find, even with my own kids. I say, are you coming to mass? And they go, oh, we'll go to the roman catholic mass. And I said, why? You're a maronite. Then they'd say, no, dad, it's a fashion parade at the maronite churches. And I go, what do you mean? And then they go, you go and have a look. Some people are wearing all these. I don't even want to say the brands, because I've got no idea what they are. Eve Saint Laurent. Is that still a thing?
0:11:22 - (Debbie): Yeah, I think so. Possibly Gucci.
0:11:25 - (Natalie): Is that still going? They've dropped the eve, and now it's Laurent.
0:11:28 - (Eddie): Okay, St. Laurent, sorry.
0:11:29 - (Debbie): There you go. Eddie, what's wrong with you? You need to keep up with these trends.
0:11:32 - (Eddie): Sorry. I was going to say some other old fashioned, but anyway. And then you realize that I never really noticed because I'm very reverent. I go to mass. I go close to the front as I can so I don't get distracted, and I just be part of the mass. But then I've been doing some work on live streaming for our church, and so I sit at the back. So I've been taking notice of what people wear, and I just can't get over it. I just can't get over, like, people don't wear this much for weddings.
0:12:02 - (Eddie): They wear so many different outfits, and they look so expensive. And I think it's nice to be reverent when you go to church. It's nice to be humble as well. Look, I can't tell people what to wear because people wear what they want to wear. But at the same token, church should never be a fashion parade. And really, Jesus was the one who told us to not judge unless you be judged. So I think the last thing anyone should do is judge. Anybody else?
0:12:31 - (Natalie): Yeah. Whether or not they're wearing something fancy or not, or more humble. I think it's around that concept of Sunday best. Wear your Sunday best, like, come and dress up for praise and for worship, which is really a beautiful concept. It's just where it gets lost is when it becomes a competition, or where you get to a point where it's like, I can't come any other way than dressed in my best, because I will be judged for that. That's where it becomes a problem.
0:12:59 - (Eddie): Yeah, that's right.
0:13:01 - (Debbie): Yeah. I always ask and use a personal reflection of, that's nice if you can do that, but at what cost? And I'm not talking about financial cost. I mean, that is obviously a very big thing, particularly in the current financial crisis that we're in. However, also that emotional cost.
0:13:18 - (Natalie): Absolutely.
0:13:19 - (Debbie): And what are you sacrificing to present in that way? Because it does. It takes away sometimes from yourself. So thinking about that to our listeners and exploring in your preparation, it is nice, but at what cost and the impact that it's having on not just yourself, but your family, because it's a lot of pressure.
0:13:42 - (Eddie): And going to mass as a family is probably the most beautiful thing you could do during Christmas. And I think I'm humbled when I'm with my kids and now my in laws as well, and we take up a whole row and grandchildren. It's one of my proudest moments to look across, see us at mass, seeing the whole family together, it's great. But at the same token, I'm also mindful of people where families disjointed or where they've lost somebody and the person they want to be with can't be there because they've lost them for some reason.
0:14:18 - (Eddie): So there's always good and bad. And I think somehow mass or church is still the place where you can be humbled so you can get that support and everyone who knows you knows what you've lost. And it's not just pity or sympathy sometimes it's just being with that person.
0:14:38 - (Natalie): It's like what you said, Deb. Mental health doesn't go on holidays, grief doesn't go on holidays, trauma doesn't go on holidays. And often those feelings are very much heightened around this time. So we've got people dealing with that and isolation and conflict and people who've had to work all year on setting boundaries that just really get taken down towards this time of year because it's so busy.
0:15:06 - (Natalie): There's an expectation to be around people and family and friends, and you have to adjust because it's not a normal time of year.
0:15:17 - (Debbie): Yeah, I think that's a really big one, Nat, thinking about expectations and obligation is really big during the festive season and being mindful of that, because sometimes we get caught up in, oh, I've got to do my in laws, my parents, and then my know that whole thing around the wedge bet and the obligations that can be very consuming. And I know people that I've talked to in my family and community and even in my practice around during COVID we didn't have that opportunity.
0:15:50 - (Debbie): And people found that quite liberating because they couldn't go anywhere. They didn't have that social obligation, and they didn't feel that burden of having to maintain all those expectations. Yeah.
0:16:03 - (Natalie): I personally felt that myself. I remember being in Palm Sunday and we got up and we went for a bushwalk and then we did mass at home and we had lunch together as a family in our activewear. And I thought, wow, this is amazing. We're sitting and we're talking about Jesus and we're reading the Bible and we're saying a prayer as a family and we're not rushing, yelling, get dressed. We've got to go here now. No, we have to leave here now to go here.
0:16:30 - (Natalie): It was a very different experience.
0:16:32 - (Debbie): Yeah. So just being able to capture that thinking about with our listeners, those things that you embraced during that time where you weren't caught up with the obligations, the wedge bed, the expectations of others and just really being drawn to your immediate family and having that connection, thinking of how you can replicate that. Obviously, we don't have the barriers now, but we have new barriers where those expectations are more heightened now more than ever, probably.
0:17:04 - (Eddie): I remember one Covid. We were having Christmas and this is when you could have ten people. And so my family were coming for lunch, so we had two turkeys. So I do the cooking. So I got two turkeys ready and got all this ready. And in the afternoon, my wife's family come over and there's like 100 of them. We had all that ready. And then first thing in the morning, we wake up and I'm making bread and my daughter walks down and says, dad, I've got Covid.
0:17:33 - (Eddie): So then I had to ring everybody. We had to cancel Christmas, so she got nicknamed the Grinch. And so when we sat down for Christmas dinner, we only cooked one turkey and we had to have a phone there so we could FaceTime because she had FoMO. So we had to FaceTime her while she was upstairs in the bedroom. And that was the Christmas we had. So for the first time, we had the smallest Christmas I have ever had in my whole life because it was just us in the family.
0:18:06 - (Natalie): What was the highlight of that for you?
0:18:09 - (Eddie): The highlight was it was very relaxing compared to running around and getting this ready, getting that ready, but you just sort of sit down and you think, wait, what do I do now? Because I've got this time and I don't know what to do with it.
0:18:24 - (Debbie): Yeah.
0:18:24 - (Eddie): And it was so weird.
0:18:27 - (Natalie): I think there's advantages and disadvantages to everything. Like, there are people who really would desperately love to be around their family and friends, like us included. So it is beautiful to have the opportunity to celebrate with our family and our friends around this time. But it's good to just find the balance of having that really intimate, quality time with your family where you get to bond and connect and also then sharing some of that time with your extended family and friends.
0:18:59 - (Debbie): So looking for those opportunities really to stay connected, because sometimes it's so chaotic that we're present with each other, but we don't really feel those connections because there's a lot going on. It's hard to really enjoy being in that moment because it's timed and you've got to go to the next house or you got to do the next activity or. Yeah, it's a very chaotic time, isn't it? Particularly when there's a lot of obligation that's driving the agenda.
0:19:26 - (Natalie): But I think that's where belonging and fitting in comes in. Because how we spend our time really can fall into either category if we want to fit in. We're worried more about our reputation, about what we are attending and not attending, what we're missing out on, what we're bringing with us. We're worried about fitting in, doing what everyone else is doing. Or we can think about belonging, which is based more on quality and character.
0:19:54 - (Natalie): And if we are missing something, it's for a good reason, and people know who we are and they're okay with it because it's based on belonging and character, not reputation and fitting in.
0:20:07 - (Eddie): Wow, that's really smart, Nat. That's really not. That's really good. That's really good. I loved it. That was really cool. I'm taking notes.
0:20:20 - (Debbie): We got it. We read from. We got it recorded. I think what really resonates there, and you've both mentioned it, is when you are in that state of belonging, there's a lot that's stripped away. Those masks that you talk about are gone, aren't they? And you're able to really see each.
0:20:40 - (Natalie): Other fully, which is vulnerable and honest and authentic. And really, what else do we want other than that?
0:20:48 - (Eddie): It's also scary.
0:20:50 - (Natalie): Very scary. Intimidating.
0:20:53 - (Eddie): We are vulnerable, and we're so scared that people won't like us. And we don't know if who we are is good enough because we don't think we're good enough. So it really starts with us, doesn't it? Not about anybody else, but it starts with us. The more confident we are, the less we care about what anybody else thinks. And they're the people who you find get an extra sense of belonging and easier to fit in and easier to belong.
0:21:24 - (Eddie): It's the ones that are really scared that don't show their true selves. But the beauty in everybody is there. And God made us all different for a reason. And I think we're all unique. And I think what people need is uniqueness at the table, not the same.
0:21:38 - (Natalie): As anybody else, because how boring would that be?
0:21:42 - (Eddie): Oh, I know. I just realized how smart that was.
0:21:45 - (Natalie): Very smart, Eddie. Sorry we missed that. That was very smart, Eddie.
0:21:50 - (Eddie): That's your left pause there so you could jump in.
0:21:57 - (Debbie): Give it time, Eddie. Come on.
0:22:00 - (Natalie): I was so astounded by what you were just. I needed a moment. But I'm here now, and that was amazing.
0:22:05 - (Eddie): Thank you.
0:22:08 - (Debbie): Yeah. So, thinking about. I really like what you said there, Eddie. And it was very smart in terms of learning to embrace, know, and engage. It is scary, because I think we're probably our worst critics, aren't we? And we worry about others rejecting us, but we tend to reject ourself first, which makes us less accessible to other people. And I know you talk about those examples in your practice of that analogy of what happens if the mask comes.
0:22:39 - (Eddie): Off and how they cope with it and whether they can cope with it. And like you said earlier, Nat, when. How exhausting that is. But imagine not just a day, a major part of their life, they're running around with masks, and imagine what it'd be like when they finally take that mask off. And it's almost like they've repressed who they were that whole time. And so I've seen people sat with them, and I've seen three different people in front of me, responding three different ways. And I'm thinking, this is somebody who doesn't know who they are anymore.
0:23:13 - (Eddie): And so when I confront them and I say I'm dealing with three people here, they actually get really emotional about it, and they think, I don't know who I am anymore because I'm trying so hard to fit in. And they all say the same thing. I don't think I'm good enough. And so we start this whole track on, are you worthy? No, I'm not worthy. Then where do you go from there? And I see that with some women who have been repressed by their husbands, I see that happen, too.
0:23:42 - (Eddie): And they start to believe the lies, that they're not worthy or they're not.
0:23:46 - (Natalie): Good enough, that no one else will have them and no one will have them. Their husband has to put up with them. Yeah.
0:23:52 - (Eddie): You know what I say? If no one else will have you, then they're missing out.
0:23:56 - (Debbie): Yeah.
0:23:56 - (Natalie): And ultimately, who do we belong to? We want to belong to ourselves, but ultimately, we belong to God. And where else would we rather be?
0:24:07 - (Debbie): Yeah, I think that's a really important point in terms of thinking about when we are lost and confused about how we feel about ourselves. Reflecting on that, that we will always have a place with God. And echoing those words, come as you are. Know that I will love you regardless of what you wear or who your family is or what your take home income is. Those things are superficial and they're not important.
0:24:36 - (Eddie): You can't really wear a mask in front of God, can you?
0:24:39 - (Natalie): Well, there's that saying that the mask will eventually fall off even if you don't take it off. It's only a matter of time.
0:24:48 - (Eddie): That's profound.
0:24:49 - (Natalie): Is that profound?
0:24:50 - (Debbie): What's going on tonight?
0:24:52 - (Natalie): On fire.
0:24:54 - (Eddie): That just water.
0:24:56 - (Debbie): I know what's going on. Give me some of that. Yeah. So as we wrap this up, I'm just thinking about, for our listeners, some of those key messages to help them get through. We know that those challenges, those mental health challenges, whether it's about the pain that we carry, the stresses that we carry, the grief and loss that we carry, we know we're going to take them with us. They will show up in different ways on our holidays.
0:25:20 - (Debbie): I'm wondering for our listeners some strategies to really help support them during this time and things for them to remember as they carry some of those burdens with them.
0:25:33 - (Eddie): I'm reminded of a song, christmas song, that I heard once, and, well, my family got very emotional when we heard it because it was about losing somebody. It was because I have a competition at home with my brother on who finds the best Christmas song for the year, but this one just topped the cake. The song was by the piano guys, and I'm really sorry, but I forgot the name of the song. But it is so nice. It's about someone who lost his daughter, who's 21, by the way.
0:26:03 - (Eddie): For anyone who's interested, the clip for the song that I was talking about is by the piano guys. It's called the sweetest gift. It features someone called Craig Avery, and you can get it on YouTube if you have a listen to it. I guarantee you you really enjoy it. The link is in the footnotes of this episode. The song goes on about how we lose people and what we go through and the only solace we can take from it. And the chorus is something along the lines of, they're with the son of God, they're with the prince of peace, they're with. And I can't remember the rest of it, but it's all so beautiful because that's what you can take from it.
0:26:44 - (Eddie): Because nothing else is really going to help. There's nothing that. You can't sugarcoat it. You can't tell people, pat them on the back and say, it's okay. It's okay because it's not okay. We're still going to feel hurt. No words are going to take that away. But I think if we can feel some solace in one day, we'll see them again. And knowing that they're with God up in heaven, I think that gives us a little bit of.
0:27:10 - (Eddie): What's the word I'm looking for? You're good with words tonight.
0:27:13 - (Natalie): The word you're looking for is comfort. And see, she's got it tonight.
0:27:19 - (Eddie): But it is. It's the comfort that they can get from that. So that's how I see it. With grief. What else is there?
0:27:26 - (Debbie): Yeah. And what I'm hearing from you is allowing yourself to feel those emotions. And don't carry those masks.
0:27:34 - (Eddie): Just feel it.
0:27:36 - (Debbie): Let them happen. It's normal. It's natural to feel.
0:27:39 - (Eddie): It's yours.
0:27:40 - (Debbie): That time where you should be with your loved ones and you're not. It's normal to feel those emotions and to allow them.
0:27:47 - (Eddie): And I think it's grief, to me, has always been a very personal thing, not a public thing. And so when we grieve, we feel, but we own that, and we're allowed to. And so we're allowed to miss. We don't need anyone to tell us whether you should miss someone or not miss someone. We can miss them as much as you like. You can not miss them as much as you like. You can feel that the whole world is black, but that's you.
0:28:14 - (Eddie): But it's temporary, and you will get through it.
0:28:16 - (Debbie): Yeah.
0:28:17 - (Natalie): There's a beautiful quote, and it says, grief is just the feeling of so much love not being able to be expressed to the person it needs to get to. And I think that that's so beautiful. And we need to give ourselves permission to feel the way that we feel. We need to acknowledge our feelings, validate them, and then feel also okay to park them sometimes. Because sometimes there's a little bit of guilt around this time of year and celebrating with family and friends when somebody is missing.
0:28:51 - (Natalie): And I think that we need to give ourselves permission to feel our feelings, but also to park them sometimes if we feel we can.
0:28:58 - (Debbie): Yeah. So being able to feel joy and peace and excitement is also normal and okay. And you're right. Sometimes that is associated with some grief, particularly when you're experiencing Christmas maybe for the first time without a loved one, and that may be for lots of different reasons. Whether they've passed on or the relationship is dissolved or there's conflict, there's lots of reasons we don't have access to the people we love during the time we need them the most.
0:29:33 - (Debbie): And that can come with lots of mixed emotions and allowing that. Well, thank you both. I think it's a great opportunity to share your experiences and your wisdom and your intelligence, and I think it's been really fun. So I really thank you both for joining me, and I wish you both a Merry Christmas with your families, and I hope that there's opportunity. I know it's been a big year where we take this time to enjoy each other and also take time to reflect on the year that passed.
0:30:03 - (Natalie): Thank you, Ted.
0:30:03 - (Debbie): Merry Christmas.
0:30:04 - (Natalie): Merry Christmas, Eddie.
0:30:05 - (Eddie): And merry Christmas to our listeners as well.
0:30:14 - (Debbie): I hope this episode has helped you find sanctuary in this exciting journey of life. All of the resources we've mentioned in this episode are found in the podcast notes. If you need some assistance with any of the topics discussed in today's episode, then please visit our website, hshl.org au. You and your mental health matters to us, and we hope you get one step closer in finding sanctuary. Bye for now.