[TRANSCRIPT]
0:00:04 - (Debbie Draybi): Welcome to finding sanctuary. Our shared conversations into how we think and feel and how we find peace and comfort in daily life. We get together with experts to chat about all things mental health, getting insights and understanding on the struggles of life. My name is Debbie Draybi, and I'm a psychologist and a proud maronite woman and a mother of three children. And I'm passionate about bringing people together to share their stories, to support each other through life and all its beauty and all its pain.
0:00:33 - (Debbie Draybi): I look forward to hearing from you in this podcast series as we engage in conversations around our shared experiences as a community. We love to hear what you think of the podcast, so please subscribe, share like and comment wherever you get your podcasts. You this episode we touched base on two broad topics, one being slightly heavier in topic and tone than the other. The first being appearances and that sense of belonging for a teenager. And the second topic, really touching on parenting by fear. Let's dive straight into the first topic.
0:01:14 - (Debbie Draybi): So welcome back to another episode on Finding Sanctuary. I'm really excited today. I've got the whole team together, dream team. I've got Monsignor Shora, who's the parish priest in the hills. And I've also got our resident counselor, Eddie Reaiche, and our resident psychologist, Natalie Moujalli. So I've got them all in the one room, which is quite rare. So I'm locking the doors. We're talking again, continuing this conversation around parenting across the different developmental stages. And now we've progressed to the teenage years, and you can probably hear my reluctance I'm going through. I'm in the middle of that right now. So just being able to have conversations around some of the challenges in that. Such a messy period.
0:02:03 - (Debbie Draybi): And I use that term quite loosely, just thinking about, Eddie, some of your experiences. I know you've raised teens and now they're adults and they're having their own kids and being able to give us some survival tips, but also some of your practical experiences and insights from that.
0:02:21 - (Eddie Reaiche): Okay? Teenage years are the most formidable years and character building years that there are. All I think about when I think about teenage years, I think about pimples, I think about hair. I think about fashion. I think about how all of a sudden, their appearance is so important to how they develop, and it means everything to them in the world. Pimples, skin, all these things that can make them look at themselves so differently has to be taken care of. Can't tell you how many skin specialists I went, how many courses of oracutane for my kids, I had to go through.
0:02:59 - (Eddie Reaiche): Fortunately, my genes is acne genes, so some of my kids got it. And so we went through the courses of oracutane to help them through it. Then there was the gym work. To make their bodies, the boys had to make their bodies look bigger. The girls had to make their bodies look smaller. It was just really funny on the dynamics of trying to work with one and the other because I just went with it. It didn't matter what I thought to be right or wrong. To me, they were all my girls were the most beautiful girls on earth.
0:03:29 - (Eddie Reaiche): And they kept telling me, you're only saying that because you're my dad. And the boys, to me, I thought were perfect, but didn't matter what I thought. So it made sense to me to just go with it. Whatever it was, just go with it. They want to fix their skin. I organized the dermatologist and took them to the skin specialist. They want to fix up their bodies. I helped with chimpies and helped them do what they wanted to do because they were always after that sense of belonging, and you need that. And my girls went to one of the harshest prisons on the planet.
0:04:04 - (Eddie Reaiche): And I call that a girl school, an all girls school. And if anything is to happen where things go bad, and that's where it happens. Girl schools are the worst schools. Bullying, all these other things that happen. The mean girls. Perfect example where it comes from the groups moving from one group to the other, little clicks, the clicks, and then sitting down with your daughter and listening and just nodding your head.
0:04:30 - (Eddie Reaiche): Fighting the temptation was a really tough chore. And my sons, when they were bullied again, fighting the temptation again. But I knew it was character building, and so we talked about it. And so I said, what did you want to do? They wanted to start doing martial arts. Said, only if you're not going to use that to start a fight. So they started learning martial arts again. I had to listen to what my kids wanted right then and there.
0:04:58 - (Eddie Reaiche): Hormones were going insane. They had no idea what was going on. They couldn't comprehend or come to terms with how they were feeling or why they were feeling certain ways. So I wasn't going to step in the middle and say, this is what's happening to you. Winter story I just had to wait for them to come to me when they asked me the questions and I said, this is a normal process and this is what happens. ABC tried to be objective as much as I could.
0:05:25 - (Eddie Reaiche): That helped me through those years. Doesn't mean it'll help everybody through those years, because sometimes people develop differently and it's a different environment. I had my own environment. I knew what it was like, and I grew up with that environment, so I knew how to handle it. Parents out there that are listening doesn't mean your kids will be exactly the same as mine. And you have to try and modify or work with your kids the way they've grown up in your family, how it all works.
0:05:55 - (Eddie Reaiche): Who's important to them? Who are their mentors? Who are the people they look up to? Mightn't be you, might be their auntie, might be their uncle. Just use those people to help communicate or bridge that communication between yourself and them. There are smart ways of doing that. I don't know if that's a long winded answer, but that's the experience that I had.
0:06:16 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah, and look, what I'm hearing is you just being present and available and showing up for them in whichever way they present and whatever they bring, and holding back your own opinions and ideas and just allowing them. And sometimes, even though you have the solution, just sitting with their uncertainty and allowing them to discover things on their own.
0:06:40 - (Eddie Reaiche): Because as I said with the girls, I still believe they're the most beautiful girls on the planet, but they will always believe. I just say that because I'm their father.
0:06:48 - (Debbie Draybi): Got that bias. It's a bit of a waiting game, isn't it?
0:06:52 - (Eddie Reaiche): It is.
0:06:53 - (Debbie Draybi): Parenting teens. You're waiting for them to develop. But also, it sounds like it's less hands on than those earlier formative years. You kind of have to learn to.
0:07:03 - (Eddie Reaiche): Pull back the tears, the arguments, the emotional extremes from one to the other from each of your children, the ones that hold back, the ones that, like you said in an earlier session, every child is different. And the way we relate to them is different. And we have to just be present, like you said, deb, for when they need us. Because sometimes their best friend is closer to them than we are. Regardless of what happens, mind you, I can tell you from experience, after we get through this hurdle, things get a lot better and they come back home, but you have to go through the hurdle.
0:07:45 - (Debbie Draybi): So parting, that is letting them go and explore and maybe develop relationships that they're going to be closer to than the one that you have with them for a little while. But sounds like they come back.
0:07:58 - (Eddie Reaiche): They do. As long as you create that safe, stable home that's important and that reassurance.
0:08:06 - (Debbie Draybi): That you will be there when they're ready. It's about their readiness, not yours.
0:08:11 - (Eddie Reaiche): Yes, I'm on their terms.
0:08:13 - (Debbie Draybi): It's a waiting game. It's like teenaging. Parenting teens is like a waiting room for their development. Good luck and a holding space.
0:08:24 - (Natalie Moujalli): I'm really looking forward.
0:08:25 - (Debbie Draybi): I know Natalie's super excited in my. So, Nat, I'm thinking about that. I know that your kids are not there yet, but you've definitely got nephews and nieces and also families you've worked with. I'm wondering about some of your thoughts around Eddie's experience, but also your own.
0:08:44 - (Natalie Moujalli): Look, sometimes when we're talking about teens, I think we're talking about me. I have to remind myself that I'm 40 and I'm not a teenager anymore.
0:08:52 - (Eddie Reaiche): You still look like a teenager.
0:08:54 - (Natalie Moujalli): And I'm responsible for children who are turning into teenagers. And I get a little bit contrary to the advice I offered in the last episode, I do get a little bit caught up in reading all the information from preteens to teens. I'm really interested in how they move from each stage and what needs to be done. And what's really stood out for me is something that I've read, which is that when a child goes from childhood to teenage years, a parent goes from proximity to availability.
0:09:26 - (Natalie Moujalli): So you go from being near them all the time to being available to be near them when they need you. And I think that that's really difficult. I think I'm going to struggle with that and I have seen it play out in my practice and in our extended family and I've seen our family handle it like troopers. They are able to loosen the reins just enough to be around but not smothering. I think I might struggle with that.
0:09:54 - (Natalie Moujalli): Trying to teach myself that now.
0:09:55 - (Eddie Reaiche): Wait till they get a license.
0:09:57 - (Natalie Moujalli): Oh, I can't wait.
0:09:59 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah, just really powerful statement around thinking about that proximity to availability and how do you navigate that? And it sounds like part of it is learning to let go. And it takes some grieving to do that, doesn't it?
0:10:16 - (Natalie Moujalli): You are definitely going to be grieving the relationship you had with your child, your baby and your child. There's a meme and it says, no one prepares you from going from mama to mum to bro. And I think I will struggle with that because my son is already taller than me and because I have quite a sarcastic sense of humor. My children have obviously developed that little trait and they have now learnt to joke with me a little bit and they can cross the line a little bit and I'd be like, I might be shorter than you, but watch out.
0:10:54 - (Natalie Moujalli): Remember, I'm your mother. I'm not your brother.
0:10:58 - (Debbie Draybi): Yes, we're not friends.
0:10:59 - (Natalie Moujalli): We're not friends.
0:11:01 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah, think about, yeah, that's really interesting as you talk about that proximity to availability. And just even before we started the episode, your kids were on the phone and then you were trying to get off so we can start. And they're like, oh, hang on, mum, wait. And I'm like, oh, yeah. In a few years time it'll be like, no, hang on, don't hang off. You're lucky if they even answer the phone to start with.
0:11:25 - (Debbie Draybi): And it's like, yeah, enjoy that.
0:11:27 - (Natalie Moujalli): My daughter was like, hold on. Let me tell you, I love you. I love you.
0:11:30 - (Debbie Draybi): And I was like, I love you too. And then I can see you looking at me like, okay, enjoy it. It's like, yeah, what? And then they don't even say why. The phone just goes, I can't wait, Deb.
0:11:43 - (Natalie Moujalli): I can't wait.
0:11:44 - (Debbie Draybi): Much to look forward to. But yeah, I think that's incredible, that proximity to availability and lucky if they answer the phone, get a text.
0:11:53 - (Eddie Reaiche): You know, the other thing that as a parent, what I've noticed is I grieve. And I get very emotional when I see my kids photos as babies because I lost them. And it's like I want them back because I miss them so much as they were totally dependent on me. They needed me for everything. They would clutch my leg or hold my hand and not let go. When I come home from work, they wouldn't let me in the front door. They had to tell me everything that happened in their day because I encouraged that and I miss that so much. And it gets me so emotional when I think about it and I really miss it.
0:12:30 - (Eddie Reaiche): And I do go through grieving phases because I want it back so much because it was such a different time in my life. Now I'm learning again with my grandchildren and I'm learning a new type of love with my grandchildren. But my children is something really special to me and just missing that and the things they did. We always have these conversations about what they did as children and we always have a laugh during family nights.
0:13:01 - (Eddie Reaiche): And so I always bring things up and my wife brings things up because I really miss. And I will always grieve for them as children because we had such a great know.
0:13:12 - (Natalie Moujalli): That's a really timely reminder, Eddie, for someone like me with the stage where my children are out to slow down, pump the brakes and enjoy the moment even though it feels hard sometimes and even though I can't wait for them maybe to be more independent at sometimes. But hear you speak like that reminds me to slow down and enjoy each stage as it comes.
0:13:34 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah. Because sometimes we do wish that time away, don't we, when we're in the midst of it and it's demanding and consuming and overwhelming.
0:13:40 - (Eddie Reaiche): When I heard your daughter say, no, wait, I felt that the pit of my stomach, it really got to me. And when she said, no, wait, I love you. I love you, I thought, oh my God, I'm gone.
0:13:56 - (Debbie Draybi): And I was triggered in the same way.
0:13:58 - (Natalie Moujalli): Bring the tissues next time.
0:13:59 - (Eddie Reaiche): I was a blubbering mess for my daughter's wedding and I refused to see my other daughter in her wedding dress because I don't want to be a blubbering mess from now to when she gets married. And I hate videographers and photographers because they know what I'm like and so they wait for me to see them all dressed up. And then when I see them, I am pathetic. Not very manly at all.
0:14:23 - (Natalie Moujalli): No, but it sounds like you have main character vibes and the teenagers would understand that.
0:14:28 - (Eddie Reaiche): Yeah, maybe.
0:14:29 - (Natalie Moujalli): Yeah.
0:14:35 - (Debbie Draybi): That was really eye opening, knowing that we need to be available and listen to our teens without judgment, as much as we can strive to create a safe space for them to explore and discover, as parents, we should enjoy every stage of parenting and not wishing away any stage, the teenage stage being one of them. In the next section, we talk about parenting by fear and how the generational divide can be closed.
0:15:02 - (Debbie Draybi): As I'm sure you're aware, our teenagers this day and age have very different pressures and expectations compared to when we were growing up. Social media and being always connected to the virtual world around can be really tricky to navigate as an adult. What more a teenager who is going through so many physical and hormonal changes. Together with Eddie, Monsignor and Natalie, we touch on a very real topic right after this, and we invite you to approach this with humble know. We talk about parenting by fear and there is this real guardedness of society now and a fear of what it means exposing our kids or not having any control in terms of what they're exposed to as well.
0:15:51 - (Debbie Draybi): Do you want to share some examples around some of those things that they're observing in society that they're concerned about?
0:15:57 - (Eddie Reaiche): A lot of it came after the same sex marriage and about gender identification and things like this. Now we can't control the environment that's outside our control and nothing we do or say is going to make a difference. We can be happy about it, we can be upset about it. We can't control it. What I generally suggest is that they create a safe haven at home. So when your child comes home, they know they can talk to you about anything.
0:16:26 - (Eddie Reaiche): So when they come home, they know that your values and the values that are being bestowed upon them, forced on them, clash. So if they've got a safe spot to come home and talk to you about it, you can tell them about how we believe and what we believe and then use that. But you need to create that safe space. If you don't have that safe space, then they'll get their information, make up their own mind outside of the family.
0:16:53 - (Eddie Reaiche): So if they really want to know what to do, they have to be informative, but they also have to be approachable. So as a father, you need to be approachable with your children, and you have to make sure that they always feel comfortable to talk to you about anything. And so when they do come to you and talk to you, they don't feel threatened by what they say, and they can have an open dialogue. If you give that to them, regardless of what happens outside, at least you've got some control. But that happens at home.
0:17:24 - (Eddie Reaiche): Yeah.
0:17:24 - (Monsignor Shora): They got the best chains of influencing that. Good trust.
0:17:29 - (Debbie Draybi): Okay, so what I'm hearing around building that trust, building that safe space, what are some of the practical ways to do that? Because I guess my question around this is there is this overwhelming fear. There is a lot of unknowns about some of these ideas, whether it's around same sex marriage or around gender identity. It's very fear driven, a lot of our reactions. How do you create a safe space when you yourself are scared?
0:17:58 - (Eddie Reaiche): It's a great question, Debbie. It's a question you'd have to think about a lot. But I think the more objective you can be, which is really difficult, given that it's so much emotion behind it. If you could be objective when your child comes home and brings up a subject, if you're adamant, if you're right wing or left wing or you're strict, one way or the other, you will lose that child. Because if they don't agree with that, then they'll think they can't talk to you about it.
0:18:28 - (Eddie Reaiche): But if you're right in the middle and you listen, and then you help them understand what they're saying, the best part is this communication that you can develop. Bear in mind, it's nice to treat a child like an adult or an adolescent like an adult, but understand their level of development. We can't talk to them like you're going to talk to your father or talk to your brother. You need to talk to them at their development level.
0:18:52 - (Eddie Reaiche): So if a nine year old comes to you, you can't talk to them like they're a 19, 2030 year old. You need to talk at a nine year old level so they can understand what you're saying. It all sounds very complex, but it's not really that hard. It's just an awareness that you have to have. I don't know if that answers the question.
0:19:12 - (Debbie Draybi): Look, absolutely. I think what you just said there, that the importance of recognizing your own bias and your ideas, that sometimes your kids will test you and if they realize that you're swinging one way or the other, then that's going to determine how open they are and what information they give you. But also I think around thinking about where they're at their developmental stage. It's a tricky one because especially when we're scared, we parent the way we were parented regardless of our education level, our training.
0:19:47 - (Debbie Draybi): Sometimes hear my mum in me and she doesn't have anywhere near the level of education or training that I have as a psychologist, but I find that I do. And no disrespect to her, she's a wonderful mother, but she parented the way she knew and learned. And I think when those fears emerge, we do sometimes regress to our early experiences and our experiences of being parented. And you've both mentioned for those vulnerable families where there is that father wound, sometimes we can go back to those early experiences unintentionally.
0:20:22 - (Monsignor Shora): But it's a fear response, I think a good way. One of my sisters shared with me once when her daughter came home, I don't know how old she was. She was six or seven. And she brought up, mentioned something in the sexual area and my sister said her heart went up into her throat and she felt like screaming. And she did everything in her power just to keep that down and she just asked her a question, said, oh. And she just asked a question to see a little bit more.
0:20:55 - (Monsignor Shora): What do you think about it? What did you think? Oh, I don't even know what's about. So I didn't care about it. So she sort of just left it. And that meant to her, she's heard this word, she doesn't know what it means, she's just repeating the word nothing. But she said if she had to let out with that emotion, that word would have become something that she's fixated on and she's going to say, well, I can never talk to mum about.
0:21:20 - (Eddie Reaiche): Anything to do with that.
0:21:21 - (Monsignor Shora): So I think that's what Eddie was saying, is that we need to be hold back on the surprise or the shock and then to cease where they're at. And it's good to ask a question to them. Oh, where?
0:21:33 - (Eddie Reaiche): What?
0:21:34 - (Monsignor Shora): Find out about it. What was it? What were they talking about? What was the context? To make sure that the child may have misunderstood everything, what they understand. And then to work from there and try to give the reasons or where you think your child's at to get them to understand. So for my sister, I never forgot that example. So for my sister, she knew she was just repeating a word that she heard, but she didn't have a clue about what it meant.
0:21:59 - (Monsignor Shora): A big thing is sometimes, Zeddy said, our reaction can give a message to our children. Well, you don't talk to dad or mum about that, and we don't want that. We want them to be able to feel safe and let them ask the question, because that way you got the best opportunity to explain the principles and the truth at their level.
0:22:18 - (Debbie Draybi): So what you're describing there, I mean, I know it's very big in the literature in psychology around how we create psychological safety, is to have that humble curiosity and take a pause. Like, your sister noticed her reaction, but she didn't react. She just noticed how she was feeling. And then she thought about it, paused and asked a question. And thinking about that, seeing where they're at, that means humility, that humble curiosity to check in and ask a question where you're curious, where you're not reacting to what they're saying, but you're open to what comes next. And often it's a lot less worse than you think. Your initial impression?
0:22:58 - (Eddie Reaiche): Yeah, raising my children, it was very similar. My knee jerk reaction was to go, what really jumped down there?
0:23:06 - (Debbie Draybi): What did you say?
0:23:08 - (Eddie Reaiche): But the one thing I try and teach people is to be more cognitive or more thinking rather than reacting. And so, so many times I've had to swallow what I wanted to say because that's my knee jerk. That's how I was brought up. Yeah. And so take a breath and learn, because I learned how to listen. And so learning how to listen was more powerful than anything I had to say.
0:23:31 - (Debbie Draybi): And listening to your body first and noticing what happens before you react, taking that pause.
0:23:38 - (Eddie Reaiche): But these are sort of things when you talk about fear. I think in our culture, it's synonymous with parenting, either fear or guilt. We see it a lot. And again, the effects that happens, that occurs in their adult life, particularly their self esteem and their insecurities that come out. I've got people where I've got lifelong challenges with session after session, trying to help them navigate through a world where they don't have to feel that they're not worth anything, that they're not worthless.
0:24:15 - (Natalie Moujalli): Yeah.
0:24:15 - (Debbie Draybi): And I think it's that navigating that world that is different. We're living in a western society, growing up in a traditional eastern culture where there is a lot of difference around traditions and norms and what's acceptable. And when we think about that fear, parenting by fear, there's not just that fear of losing them as people, but losing them to a culture that's threatening and different and potentially losing their cultural identity.
0:24:43 - (Debbie Draybi): I think that's a really. Maybe in future episodes, we need to think about exploring more.
0:24:48 - (Eddie Reaiche): That's really important because we all have a sense of belonging, but who do we want to belong with in the end? And I wonder, is our own family attractive enough for us to want to stay with them? And I'm talking from a child's perspective or a teenager's perspective, or is a group of friends I'm hanging out with who can get me money really fast just by doing things that are not legal. But they're calling me brother and they're telling me that I love them, that.
0:25:19 - (Debbie Draybi): They love me and they accept me.
0:25:20 - (Natalie Moujalli): For who I am. They know who I am and they accept me for who I am. So they must love me more and.
0:25:25 - (Debbie Draybi): They must understand me more because what would mum and dad know?
0:25:28 - (Eddie Reaiche): Yeah. And by me wearing this color, it's my badge of honor and I'm proud to be part of this group. Scary.
0:25:36 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah.
0:25:36 - (Eddie Reaiche): But we have to give someone a reason to love us.
0:25:40 - (Debbie Draybi): We've really started to tap into and understand and unlock when we talk about fear and parenting by fear, some of the challenges and the underlying sort of risks that we're navigating, and I look forward to coming together again and talking about that in future episodes. But I was just wondering whether you had any parting words as we wrap up this parenting series for parents, regardless of the developmental stage, one key message that they can hold on to, to give them that hope and that reassurance.
0:26:14 - (Eddie Reaiche): I always ask parents who I see for couples counseling. I look at the dad and I said, what would you do for your child? And they all say the same thing. I would give my life for my child. I would give my right arm for my child. And I said, that sounds really dramatic and drastic. I said, do you think you could at least just love them and that would be enough? And that's what I'd like to leave parents with.
0:26:42 - (Eddie Reaiche): Because seriously, that's all they need.
0:26:45 - (Debbie Draybi): And to know that you are enough and your love is enough. That reassurance. And what about yourself? A key message for instilling that hope and that reassurance to parents out there.
0:26:56 - (Natalie Moujalli): I think that going back to what we were saying before, nobody knows your child like you do, and nobody loves your child like you do. So that unconditional love and acceptance and confidence in the connection that you both carry between each other is enough, more than enough to make you an amazing parent and to make your family attractive enough that your child wants to be with you all the time.
0:27:23 - (Debbie Draybi): Listen more. Acknowledge their struggle, confusion, or pain piled on with the big dose of humble curiosity as much as we can. Try not to jump to conclusions, especially when the subject matter might shock us. Create that safe space so they are super comfortable chatting with us. I hope this episode has helped you find sanctuary in this exciting journey of life. All of the resources we've mentioned in this episode are found in the podcast notes.
0:27:57 - (Debbie Draybi): If you need some assistance with any of the topics discussed in today's episode, then please visit our website, hshl.org au. You and your mental health matters to us, and we hope you get one step closer in finding sanctuary. Bye for now.
0:28:19 - (Eddie Reaiche): You, our.