[TRANSCRIPT]
0:00:04 - (Debbie): Welcome to Finding Sanctuary, our shared conversations into how we think and feel and how we find peace and comfort in daily life. We get together with experts to chat about all things mental health, getting insights and understanding on the struggles of life. My name is Debbie DRABEE, and I'm a psychologist and a proud Maronite woman and a mother of three children. And I'm passionate about bringing people together to share their stories to support each other through life and all its beauty and all its pain.
0:00:33 - (Debbie): I look forward to hearing from you in this podcast series. As we engage in conversations around our shared experiences as a community. We love to hear what you think of the podcast, so please subscribe, share, like, and comment wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for joining us again for another episode in Finding Sanctuary. And again, I've got the privilege of being joined by our two resident counsellors. I've got Eddie Rishi and Natalie Majali, and we're going to continue our conversation about parenting and really explore the next stages, particularly in that we talked about early childhood and some of the challenges.
0:01:19 - (Debbie): Now we're moving on to children, parenting children and some of those challenges during those early stages. And Eddie, again, I want to refer to you and your experiences in that space and what some of the things that you've noticed in your work and your practice, but also as a father.
0:01:36 - (Eddie): One thing that's always struck me is how we discipline our children, particularly in the young years. I think it's always been almost cliche when people say, well, I was raised with a smack and I turned out okay. I think when people say that, it's people not really thinking great deal about how a lot of people didn't turn out okay. The one message that I have for anybody who feels that violence or hitting their children is okay is when you hit a child, the child doesn't love you less, but they love themselves less.
0:02:12 - (Eddie): And when you hear about kids who are abused one way or the other as they're growing up, they have the lowest self esteem, they're all insecure and they're all fearful of everybody else, particularly authoritarians, because this is the people that they trust. This is the people who they believe is there to take care of them, and these are the people that are abusing them. And when I say abuse, I'm not saying that people smack their kids all the time and it's some horror movie that you can imagine.
0:02:44 - (Eddie): It only takes a couple of times and it can come in so many forms. If you put down your child, then that child becomes extremely insecure and they will become rebellious, and that's the only thing they know. I think it's a good idea for people to start thinking twice about how they were raised and whether or not they need to raise their children the same way. Because if we can be conscious because I was raised a certain way and the way I raised my children, it's different.
0:03:15 - (Eddie): My knee jerk reactions was to do the same, but I stopped and I thought and I thought, no, I'm not going to do that. So I raised my children totally different to how I was raised and we have a very close connection and a camaraderie between all of us. I know more about my daughter's periods than my wife does. We have a very close connection, but it's only because I respected my children who in turn respected me.
0:03:42 - (Eddie): So I think that's a very important message to take home.
0:03:45 - (Debbie): Yeah. Look. Thanks, Eddie. It's just inspiring to see know as parents, sometimes we do revert back to our experiences of how we were parented and that is often our natural instinct to do that. But you've changed that cycle and that pattern. And yes, it's challenging, but it's also enabled you to have this unique relationship that you never had with your parents, possibly, where there's that equality and that mutual respect and that connection, and you were able to have a conversation and relationship with your daughter that was potentially quite taboo in your parents generation. Talking to your dad about your periods and I mean, just being able to break down some of those barriers really unlocks a different kind of human, doesn't it, in what you've developed is strong, confident people that are comfortable in themselves.
0:04:40 - (Eddie): I think it's important to understand that all you seem to do when you discipline your child in the physical way or emotional abuse is instilling fear. If you get respect because of fear, it is not the sort of respect you really want to have yeah, absolutely.
0:04:58 - (Debbie): Thinking about building that trust and that connection rather than a relationship based on fear and power that's right. And that command and control, which we know is not a healthy dynamic, is it?
0:05:10 - (Eddie): No. You won't be their go to person for anything. You'll only be their go to person if they agree with what you say, if you feel they won't agree with what you say, you won't go to that person.
0:05:23 - (Debbie): It's hard to go to someone when you're feeling scared and they're scary yeah.
0:05:27 - (Eddie): And you take that on to later years and end up in my counseling room. So that becomes a problem. Yeah, absolutely.
0:05:34 - (Debbie): Being able to build that connection and that safety from very early on because it's hard to do if the foundation from the beginning isn't strong, particularly in.
0:05:44 - (Eddie): Those one to seven years of age. Very important during that time. To build up their morals and build up their sense of security and their respect and love during that time is probably the most crucial point.
0:05:58 - (Debbie): Yeah. And being able to think about you, you still need discipline, but to do it in a respectful way, that's honoring them, not putting them down or belittling them or making them feel less than.
0:06:13 - (Eddie): Exactly or extending how you're feeling at the moment, your frustration being projected onto your child.
0:06:18 - (Debbie): Some of yeah. Oh, thank you, Eddie. I think that's a really powerful conversation to start with. And Natalie, I'm thinking know as you're listening to this, what some of your thoughts are and your experiences in your practice, but also with your family.
0:06:32 - (Natalie): Yeah, I think that what you're saying, Eddie, is completely accurate and also inspirational, but I probably would be the first person to put my hand up and know, I've slipped a couple of times and I was listening to you talk, and I'm like, So what's abuse? Does it count when we smack them on the hand or the bum? As mothers and fathers, we get overwhelmed, we get angry, we react. And I guess what I'm hearing you say is like, we need to do better at controlling our responses.
0:07:08 - (Natalie): We can still discipline our children, but in a less fear responsive way.
0:07:14 - (Eddie): Exactly.
0:07:15 - (Natalie): And that's obviously the goal for all of us. And so I'm talking obviously on a personal level, but professionally, everything you say is absolutely accurate. If your children are afraid of you, then they're not going to come to you when they mess up. They don't want to be reprimanded further. They're already reprimanding themselves, and then they come to you and there's more of it. So it is definitely the absolute goal to think twice and to discipline in a more rational, controlled way.
0:07:47 - (Eddie): So true.
0:07:48 - (Debbie): Yeah. Just being able to I think we talked about it in an earlier episode. Rather than react, take a pause, think about what's happening, noticing what's happening for us before we then discipline is important, but doing it when we're emotional, we can see the risks.
0:08:08 - (Eddie): I remember one time I got really angry at my son. I forget what it was for, but I sent him to his room and I yelled at him, and I told him to go to his room, and it was at nighttime. And what I did was I went to bed to go to sleep, but I couldn't sleep because I felt so bad about what I did. I got up and I literally woke him up, took him to the lounge room, just him and I, and I explained exactly what was going on so he could understand.
0:08:34 - (Eddie): I could tell he just wanted to go to sleep, but I needed to get it off my chest so he could understand. But I think even if there's a little bit of semblance of justice or something to understand why it may have made a difference. And so he went to bed, and he was okay because he wasn't upset anymore, nor was I upset. So our relationship didn't change.
0:08:53 - (Natalie): Well, because you also took accountability for your behavior. And I think a child watching their parent take accountability for their behavior is imperative to their growth. They think, oh, okay, this is an adult, and an adult is sorry, an adult did the wrong thing, and we're then showing them that they can do the same thing in their life. They can mimic that.
0:09:16 - (Debbie): Yeah, look, I often do apologize to my kids because, as you said earlier, we slip up, and sometimes I have escalated in a way that I haven't wanted or yelling. And neighbors, they hear what's going on or whatever, because it gets quite loud. So I have found that really helps is just being able to say, you know what? I'm sorry. I lost control. I was angry, and I shouldn't have yelled at you. And just being able know what you're saying earlier, Eddie, that offers that mutual respect and also shows them that, yeah, we get it wrong. We don't always know what to do, or we're human, and unfortunately, emotions do take over, but we regret it, and we want them to know that we do.
0:10:03 - (Debbie): And that's okay.
0:10:04 - (Eddie): I think take home message from this is there's no such thing as the perfect father or the perfect mother, but there is that message of being a good enough father or a good enough mother. And I think I'm not trying to tell people that I am the perfect father, because I'm by no means the perfect father, but I believe I'm good enough. And so if we can just try and be good enough for our kids, that's enough to take home.
0:10:30 - (Debbie): Yeah. And to demonstrate to them that we're not perfect. We are still learning, and we will make mistakes, but we also take that ownership and by apologizing. So I think sometimes I've had that response from parents that I've worked with around, well, how will they respect me if I'm apologizing to them? Because it's almost like you're lowering yourself or you're losing your power as a parent, but I think it gives you a new level of power because they can see that you are human, and making mistakes is human, and it's okay, and you take responsibility for that. So it's quite a powerful position to be in, to demonstrate how to take responsibility.
0:11:11 - (Debbie): And saying sorry is an important part of that.
0:11:14 - (Eddie): It's a great point, Debbie, when you say that, because to apologize to a child is not a sign of weakness. You're teaching that child, these neurons in their brain are growing, and so they're learning at the same time. And so you apologize to a child, and what's that child thinking now at that stage where they can think, so what are they thinking? They're thinking, It's okay to say sorry, and that's what you're teaching a child.
0:11:39 - (Natalie): They're also thinking, I'm worthy. I'm worthy of an apology. Great point.
0:11:44 - (Eddie): Great point.
0:11:45 - (Natalie): They have stopped and humbled themselves and acknowledged what they've done wrong. And I think that's really a confidence booster.
0:11:52 - (Debbie): Yeah, absolutely. And it builds trust. Builds trust, which that's an ongoing I think trust is not something that just develops. It has to evolve at each developmental stage because they have different expectations. But if there's that foundation, you talked about that in an earlier episode about building that safety and that trust early on first, rather than expecting that it's going to happen in their teens, it's hard to develop when it doesn't have a strong foundation to begin with.
0:12:22 - (Eddie): And that foundation means everything, particularly in that age bracket, because that really is the foundation for the rest of their life.
0:12:29 - (Debbie): So for parents that are listening, what are some of your key advice around those early developmental formative years to build that trust and that connection and that mutual respect? Some key things, key messages around that.
0:12:44 - (Eddie): To me, keep it simple. Your child is a child. It's not an adult. Don't expect it to think. Adult think. It doesn't have the capacity to think. As an adult, we tend to get angry at our children's because they do stupid things, but to us it's stupid. To them, it's fun.
0:13:03 - (Debbie): Yeah. Logical and fun.
0:13:05 - (Eddie): Yeah. It's nothing for them to put a cord or something inside a PowerPoint and see what happens when it turns on. I did that a lot. But the thing is, that's all they think. They think of what's fun. Because we know by nature humans are pain avoiders and pleasure seekers. So they want things that are fun. They want things that make them feel.
0:13:29 - (Debbie): Good or happy in the moment, even.
0:13:32 - (Eddie): Though it doesn't make any sense to us because we're thinking adult think. And when you look at a child and they're trying to put shove a big toy in the toilet, it's really annoying because you're going to have to call a plumber at some point and they'll probably find a lot of toys in there, but to them it just makes sense. To their little brains, it makes sense. And really when you look at it, you can get angry as you like, but they just won't understand.
0:13:59 - (Eddie): And if you go to the toilet and find it's blocked up because of toys and then you go and reprimand the child, they're no different to animals. If you catch them doing it, it's okay, but later on they don't understand. And so when that discipline comes after, they don't have that cause and effect part. But I think it's really important to try and get down to their level. And if you want to talk to someone and help them understand, you need to get down to their level.
0:14:28 - (Eddie): You stand up and tell them that's authoritarian. You get down to their level and you talk to them. You'll get eye contact and engagement, but that's what you need to do.
0:14:38 - (Debbie): Yeah. So just what I'm hearing is having that presence but also keeping it simple and being able to be at their level, whether it's in a physical sense or even emotionally, that same level. Natalie, what about yourself? Any key messages for parents in terms of those early developmental years?
0:14:56 - (Natalie): Yeah, I think what you're saying, Eddie, is that, as we know, the prefrontal cortex, so the front of the brain, the rational part of the brain, is not yet developed and actually develops much later in life, later for men than for women to throw that in, didn't you? So you're right, you have to meet them where they're at. You can only meet someone else where they're at. But my key takeaway for that would be communication.
0:15:22 - (Natalie): Communicate, communicate over communicate. Make it clear so that you're both on the same page as each other. Now, sorry, the same page probably is not accurate. You need to see their page and you need to do your best to show them a little bit of yours because we both know they're not the same, which is what you just said. But communicating and trying to connect on an authentic level is imperative.
0:15:49 - (Debbie): Yeah, definitely. You're on different pages or even different chapters, but you're from the same book. Being able to connect, like you said, showing them a little bit of yours and being able to maybe reinterpret yours in a way that's going to be meaningful and they can understand takes a bit of translating, doesn't it? Yes, definitely. Yeah. Well, thank you both. I think that's been a great opportunity to really embark in this conversation around moving from the infancy to those early developmental years. And as our children grow, we are also growing and learning.
0:16:25 - (Debbie): And what I'm hearing is that importance of being able to adapt to where they're at and learn how to not just role model for them, respect, and to give them that confidence in themselves, but also teaching them how you navigate, meeting them where they're at. And we're not always going to get that right. And that's okay.
0:16:46 - (Eddie): You got plenty of time to try again and try again and try again.
0:16:49 - (Debbie): It's just an iterative process, isn't it? We get it wrong and we apologize and we just keep trying.
0:16:54 - (Eddie): I'll do it better next time. Yeah, do it better next time.
0:16:57 - (Debbie): And just showing them that that's life. It's like this social experiment. We test things and we don't get them right. But that's okay. Failing is okay. It's normal. That's how we learn.
0:17:09 - (Eddie): Exactly.
0:17:09 - (Natalie): We have to learn how to fail.
0:17:10 - (Debbie): Well, yeah, I mean, I love the best quote that I use often in work is around the only failure is the failure to learn. And just being able to think about how do we learn from our failures in a safe way. And what I've heard from you both is creating that safety means no blaming, no belittling, no harsh discipline, because that will block any learning, because it's just creating fear.
0:17:36 - (Eddie): And remember, as Nat said, the thinking part of their brain hasn't developed yet, so they don't have all that executive functioning that they need. And so they're very basic in the way they think it's yes, no, and not much.
0:17:50 - (Debbie): They're simplifying the lessons for learning as well, so that it's not overcomplicated. I hope this episode has helped you find sanctuary in this exciting journey of life. All of the resources we've mentioned in this episode are found in the podcast Notes. If you need some assistance with any of the topics discussed in today's episode, then please visit our website. Hshl.org Au you and your mental health matters to us and we hope you get one step closer in finding sanctuary.
0:18:28 - (Debbie): Bye for now.