[TRANSCRIPT]
0:00:00 - (Debbie): Warning. This episode contains confronting topics and issues. If you need help, please contact beyond Blue. For more information and resources, please visit our website, hshl.org au. Welcome to Finding Sanctuary our shared conversations into how we think and feel and how we find peace and comfort in daily life. We get together with experts to chat about all things mental health, getting insights and understanding on the struggles of life.
0:00:34 - (Debbie): My name is Debbie Drabey and I'm a psychologist and a proud Maronite woman and a mother of three children. And I'm passionate about bringing people together to share their stories, to support each other through life and all this beauty and all its pain. I look forward to hearing from you in this podcast series as we engage in conversations around our shared experiences as a community. We love to hear what you think of the podcast, so please subscribe, share like and comment wherever you get your podcasts.
0:01:09 - (Debbie): I'm very excited today to have Monsignor Shora join us back again after his travels to World Youth Day, and also welcoming back Eddie Rich as well. They've both been travelling the world and seeing some incredible sights and having some incredible experiences, which I'm sure we'll have a chance to talk about at some stage in our conversations, depending on where it takes us. But it's really great to have you both back.
0:01:33 - (Debbie): We started one of our very first conversations here at the podcast around community connections and bringing people together and thinking about the power of community. I know both of you have had quite a bit to do with, especially more recently in establishing men's groups in our community, so I wondered if we can reflect a little bit about some of your experiences with that. Monsignor, I was wondering if you want to just take us back to when you were first setting up the men's group at the Hills. What some of the things that inspired you to do that, and you obviously found a need, but just wondering if you can give me a bit of a context around what the need waS.
0:02:11 - (Debbie): Yeah.
0:02:11 - (Monsignor Shora): Thanks Debbie. Good to be here. Good to be back. All through my ministry as a priest and working with our community, I've noticed through counseling and through situations, a lot of men suffering in isolation and in silence. It really hit me in the face when I was in St. Joseph's Parish in the early two thousand s and we're in our wider Marinai community and that there was eleven suicides in six months.
0:02:41 - (Monsignor Shora): And they were mostly men, all men in all of them, hearing them and counseling with the families afterwards and hearing. A big part was that they all kept their problem to themselves and no one knew they were suffering in that silence. So from that, we had some incredible projects develop, friends of friends. And our counseling service actually quite developed from that, the family and adult counseling service.
0:03:09 - (Monsignor Shora): But then, too, from a lot of the counseling men and women, I noticed a big thing where there was a lot of young people or men were suffering because of what we might call the father wound, because of absent fathers, or sometimes fathers affected by alcohol or gambling. And then there was violence in the home, seeing the impact of that on their children. So I didn't want to just do counseling afterwards. But what do we do to prevent this, to stop this being just carried on from generation?
0:03:43 - (Monsignor Shora): So just to see where do we minister to men to help them who have been affected by this and then for them not to carry this over to their children. So that's when I started to see the importance of doing things for men and hearing and realizing the power of seeing where men are faith, men that are well grounded, men that do have that good sense of brotherhood, how they thrive. So it was doing men's groups to try and do that, to promote that.
0:04:12 - (Monsignor Shora): In our group, they say iron sharpens iron, so that when we come together and we share our hardships, share and learn from each other, and they don't have to just perform and say what they're doing at work and just can come and be vulnerable and get that brotherly support. I noticed for a lot of men, they were isolated, they didn't have that brotherly support and that good men mateship, working together, talking about.
0:04:40 - (Monsignor Shora): So there was that. And then also to a lot of men trying to cope with the pressures of life, going into unhealthy forms of coping. So use of drugs, alcohol, gambling. So just seeing this quite rampant, we can't just say, stop that or do, what are we going to do to help men to stop that? What are we going to give them that replaces that and gives them strength to find better resources, better strength for their life. So that's where the men's group has really developed to be a great strength for men and open up and a great joy in supporting each other, welcoming anyone, everyone's welcome.
0:05:16 - (Monsignor Shora): And no matter what you've been through, what you've done, it's been wonderful for me. I find it a blessing to see that and to see them already, to see the fruit flowing into their families.
0:05:28 - (Debbie): As you're talking, I'm getting this image you made a statement of iron sharpens iron and just getting this image of this strength building up in the community by bringing people together, men who have suffered in silence and have what you described as that father wound and really having the desire to not repeat that pattern. But it's hard to break those cycles. It's hard to be that cycle breaker and the first generation to not do that.
0:05:56 - (Debbie): And then bringing men who perhaps are good role models and have some good examples, well adjusted in the way that they're raising their family and connecting with their partners and just bringing them together to build those strengths. So not just telling them to stop, but giving them some strategies and examples of how to live a life that they want to lead.
0:06:17 - (Monsignor Shora): Yeah. And that they can connect. They don't only connect on that night. They got someone to reach out to during the week or say, I met so and so. It's giving them a network of support, too, for their not just meeting once a month. I've heard others where they've said, I went out with so and so this week. We caught up for a coffee, and I thought, oh, that's great. They're networking and supporting each other.
0:06:40 - (Debbie): Yeah. I see it in you, as you talk about it like that. This is not a one off thing. There's that continuity, and they're building relationships outside of the group. And just seeing the joy, as you say that, it's just very powerful.
0:06:53 - (Monsignor Shora): Yeah, I know. The fruit that comes into the families and even for some of them are bringing their teenage sons along, and it's just, you see, wow, this is really great. They're showing their sons this is the way to be together. That's really good life.
0:07:10 - (Debbie): Yeah. So just even being able to see that, it's a shared connection and responsibility, so they're not carrying that burden of having to break this cycle on their own. They can even bring their next generation with them to witness it and to share it. Thanks, Monseigne. I think it's giving us a really good context, and I'm going to invite Eddie in to talk a little bit about his experiences in setting up. You've set up some groups at St. Joseph's, and you've mentioned it briefly in past podcasts. I'm wondering about your story of how you've come to set up these groups and some of the whys around that.
0:07:44 - (Eddie): Well, my introduction to the men's group wasn't that dissimilar from Monsignors. I did my own study as well to find out about one of the biggest problems with men is suicidality. And I realized that women attempt suicide more than men, but men are more successful because men tend to go for the violent methods of suicide. And so just knowing that and realizing that there are so many men who are doing that, then you have to think to yourself, why are they doing that?
0:08:15 - (Eddie): What is it that stops them from seeking help? Why don't they go and seek professional assistance or talk to someone? And then you realize that, again, it's the father thing, where their fathers were probably all clamped up and didn't express themselves emotionally. And so this is their education. This is what they learned. So they don't know any different. And so they take that with them to. Now, the interesting thing I found when I put the men's group together was I wanted to find out exactly how they thought.
0:08:48 - (Eddie): One of the things I was saying to them is, I think a lot of people's journey, a lot of men's journey is to be a better man, a better father, a better husband, a better brother. And in saying that, what I also said was, you're welcome to bring your kids, but what I want you to do is you be the person they come to, not to get everything from here, but when you come home and you say, do you understand this? And then you educate them, because I need them to have better role models than any of them ever had.
0:09:20 - (Eddie): And so I need them to be more learned in what they're doing. I need them to go and profess how it's normal to be emotional, it's normal to be in touch with your emotions and not to be scared. Because, let's face it, we come from a very judgmental culture, and so everybody feels that. And so everyone feels everything they're doing is being monitored. And so a lot of us get very paranoid, and men have to be men.
0:09:51 - (Eddie): So then I take it back and think, well, can anyone really define what a man is or what you think a man is? And I'll leave it up to them. And now we're at the point where I now get men to help men. I don't want to be the guide for men to be better. I want other men to help them, but create that safe haven for them. So when they come together, they're now in a situation where they can express themselves.
0:10:20 - (Eddie): And when they hear someone else's challenges that they go through, which is very similar to their own, they've got somebody they can connect with. They will always look at me as the professional, the person who's the specialist and has the answers. But really, I think men have better answers than I have. I have my own lived experience, but that's only one experience. They have a myriad of experiences, and I think that's really important for them to share.
0:10:47 - (Eddie): But putting them in an environment where it's safe to do so, where they can sit and if they were to get emotional, they're in a safe space so people understand that's the onus of the men's group. That's what I'm trying to achieve and that's the direction I hope that we're going in.
0:11:06 - (Debbie): Look, it sounds incredible the way you've trying to build a new narrative in our community, redefining those social norms and expectations that we do. It's a huge burden on men's shoulders to be the way that their dad was or the way that society expects them to be and not to be comfortable with those difficult emotions and being able to do that in a safe space, it's incredible that you've been able to create that, I think, and build that sense of connection and community in an environment where perhaps there's been an avoidance of coming together and having these difficult conversations and being uncomfortable with those emotions together.
0:11:52 - (Eddie): It's true. And we have people who are. Intelligence has no play in this. We have doctors, we have lawyers, we have all kinds of people in the men's group because we all share the same thing, regardless of our career, regardless of our life choices, we all share the same burdens. And so I think, if anything, the congratulations go to the men. They're the ones who are risking everything in fronting up to come to these groups. And to me, the accolades go to them because seriously, for them to put how they feel on the line and try and be vulnerable in a space like that, I think is something that's really remarkable.
0:12:33 - (Debbie): Look, that's certainly a theme that was so strong in our grief and loss series when we had Father Danny and Paul Tannis talk about the strength in being vulnerable. And it's again, changing that narrative. It's thinking about and defining vulnerability as a sign of strength and courage. And it is part of being a man to show up in that way and to share that part of yourself.
0:12:58 - (Eddie): There was one question that came up in one of the men's group which really triggered me, really made me think, and I think Danny Abdullah was there for this one session and someone, one of the men stood up and said, what do you do about what's going on in society at the moment? How do you deal with that with your kids? And I could see the pain that they were going through because as fathers, what is the best way to raise our children?
0:13:26 - (Eddie): And I think those sort of questions that come up are questions that are very relevant to today and they're questions that we should be talking about as well as time goes on because they're real issues and these are people who just don't know how to deal with it.
0:13:46 - (Debbie): I'm wondering now if we can have a conversation on how the groups are going, what some of the themes that are emerging and what some has been some of your key learning from, from the group so far.
0:13:57 - (Monsignor Shora): We did with the men started to do it as casual. They come for barbecue and have a bit of a drink together. They like to have and just to build up the fellowship and we do about a 1520 minutes input. We've done things like on suffering, how do we handle suffering and hardship? And we had one on forgiveness. We had Danny Abdullah come and share his testimony of going to the prison, facing the man who killed his children and giving forgiveness and the man receiving the forgiveness. And it was, wow, incredibly powerful. And we had, I think, 120 men listening to that testimony. And he spoke to the men about the importance of not holding on to bitterness and anger and who have they got in their life that they need to forgive because otherwise it impacts, it impacts on their life.
0:14:49 - (Monsignor Shora): So that was a really great, that was a great talk. And then one that comes out about being buried by work that men and women can be. Yeah, but being a men's night. Yeah. We're doing the topic about being buried by work. How do they manage work boundaries and the pressures of work and balancing for the rest of their life and their role as fathers, the other things that they need to do to be healthy as men and to be men of faith in their responsibilities.
0:15:15 - (Monsignor Shora): And often for a lot of them, the work pressure, the work time at work and present work really drains most of their life. So they don't have that energy for so many other important things. I'm going to share from my experience. After ten years, my first ten years of priesthood, I had no training in how to manage my workload. So I was just put in a small parish in Adelaide to start with, then end up next, come back to Redfern St. Maroon's, bigger parish, then St. Joseph's, twice the size. So then I just didn't know how to cope with the volume of work. And as a priest you don't say no to people, you've got to be available all the time.
0:15:56 - (Monsignor Shora): So I had to learn how to manage my workload, not to be buried by my workload, so that I had time for my own faith, my own well being time for a little bit of family, little bit of exercise. For instance, how is a priest, how do I say no to someone in my diaries? And they're ringing, I need to see you. And my diary is full. And that I'd say to them, look, I really do want to see you, give me five minutes and I'll ring you back. And that I would just have a bit of chance just to have a look a bit more clearly at my diary and just see. Now, can I really do this?
0:16:31 - (Monsignor Shora): Can I be fair? Can I move something around rather than trying to squeeze it in unreasonably and put pressure on myself? And then to say, right, prepare myself for the conversation, to give them the alternative, say, look, I'm not available today, but I've got time tomorrow, I'm prepared to be able to lead people to that. If not, I can try and get you to. There's another priest or there's another if you want. So I haven't said no to them.
0:16:58 - (Monsignor Shora): I've said I can't today. I could try and get another priest if you like, or try. Otherwise I can see you and have a good quality time with you tomorrow. I wouldn't be able to have good quality time with you. So I learned how to be able to explain that to people, and 99.9% of people all responded really well to it, so most of the fear was in my own head. So, yeah, that was one of the skills, learning that. So to just under the pressure, just say to him, look, can I ring you back in five minutes? Just give me five minutes. I'll see what I can juggle around.
0:17:28 - (Monsignor Shora): And sometimes I couldn't juggle anything around, but it would just give me that mental space to work out. Hang on, what do I think they're going to need? And how can I. So that was one of the things for people who work for some people, that I've got an urgent appointment, I really can't stay back late. I have got an urgent appointment. I got an urgent family appointment and that that appointment might be just to take my son to their football. And I promise my son, well, that is an urgent family appointment, because in 20 years time, if you've kept breaking promises, your sons, or ten years time, your son's not going to want to go to any football with you or anything.
0:18:04 - (Monsignor Shora): There's no relationship. So it's just getting them to, as you said, where you're saying yes to something, you're saying no to something else. Is that fair? Is that right? And too, that I got close to burnout. Like, I got very close to burnout. And I'm going to explain to them, burnout is a painful experience. It's not just feeling tired, it's actually you feel pain with it. And to recover from burnout, you need double the rest for whatever you, wherever you've neglected your rest, you're going to need double the rest to recover. And I said, I've experienced that. And sometimes I'm seeing a lot of men putting themselves towards that and they don't realize.
0:18:43 - (Monsignor Shora): So it's about, again, that prevention trying to say, right, let's not go near this area. Let's try and find this good balance. And I've got the life Cross tool, the nine boxes I gave them, and it's a great tool that we should have all nine boxes in our lives. So they got their faith, they got their marriage, they got their work, got their hobby, they got their quality time with their children, time for self growth, time for good heart friends, and that they should have a bit of time in that every second day, every week or those areas of their life and give quality time when they're in that area of their life.
0:19:23 - (Monsignor Shora): People find that a very helpful tool, especially the men. They say, all Right, so I've shared that with them and got some good response from that.
0:19:32 - (Debbie): That's fantastic ones. And you sharing your journey and your examples and your experiences, you're very well respected. And people really see you as a role model and being able to be vulnerable and talk about how you've struggled with this, it's impacted you and what you've done about it. Thinking about that, you can't be all things to all people all the time. And it's important that you're able to prioritize and take a pause and not be available and just say yes to everything.
0:20:00 - (Debbie): And being able to model that, setting those boundaries so we're not feeling buried or consumed by the demands that we have in our life.
0:20:09 - (Monsignor Shora): Yeah. And we're finding that they're fruitful when there's topics like that. And then what I do at the end, whenever there's a presentation, what we've been doing is saying to the men, all right, with the person next to you, what's one insight? What's something you really learned from today? What's something you're going to take away with you, just with the person next to you? Just have two, three minutes to share it.
0:20:31 - (Monsignor Shora): So it's not just where they're getting input and then they're going to go off and just yeah, they have to think about. All right, yeah, hang on. Now, what was important about that? And when they share it, it actually helps to reinforce it. It find it as a good tool. And actually, after we've finished off that sort of formal part of the night, we find. I'm walking around, find the conversations are continuing about it, which is really good. Whereas other times, sometimes we've had input and then it's not talked about.
0:20:58 - (Monsignor Shora): It's been a bridge to get them to say, you can talk about this now, continuing in the night and even later on, that's something to be shared and to let grow in your life. So that's very fruitful for the men. It's good to see their responsiveness in that way.
0:21:16 - (Debbie): It sounds like you've given the opportunity to have a lived experience, a testimony. I mean, you talk about Danny Abdullah's one, this incredible, powerful story around forgiveness and not holding on to things, but then giving them an opportunity to reflect on what it means for them and how they can apply some of those learnings and not just leave it at that, someone else's experience, but integrate it into their stories because everyone's got one.
0:21:44 - (Monsignor Shora): Yeah, absolutely.
0:21:45 - (Debbie): And you mentioned that before in your foundation, and you're setting up the groups around how to break away from suffering in silence. And you've given them a voice, Monsignor, through these testimonies, and you've given them a chance to think about their story and to share it.
0:22:03 - (Monsignor Shora): I think especially, like, with things like forgiveness, and I think Eddie would. People don't realize what you don't forgive. You often repeat. What you don't forgive, you don't realize. When you're in your reaction, you often come out with it. It's such an important virtue to try and the gift of love to give yourself and to give. Yeah.
0:22:25 - (Debbie): And, Eddie, what about yourself thinking about some of the challenges and conversations that you've had in the group so far? What are some of the themes that have emerged from the groups?
0:22:35 - (Eddie): Another reason I put the men's group together was I needed to instill hope, because there's a lot of men who go through a whole bunch of problems in their life, a lot of challenges. And one of the challenges that I'm seeing more and more often relates to substance abuse, alcohol, drugs, particular cocaine, and gambling, which has come up a lot. So what I tried to do was we started bringing people in to give their own version of their life experiences and where they started and where they ended up.
0:23:10 - (Eddie): And pornography was another one that was coming up, that people don't talk about because obviously you don't want to talk about that sort of stuff, but it's a real issue. So when people came and gave their testimony and a real life testimony and said how they started with drugs, pornography, got into all these addictive behaviors, they found that there was a light at the end of the tunnel, even though they found they couldn't find it.
0:23:38 - (Eddie): Because I think it's important for men to hear that men in the group that are still very quiet, still a little bit reserved, because we're not sure how much they can really talk about because they don't know how it's going to be received. But if you have people giving testimonies and say, look, I hit rock bottom, I was kicked out by my family, my wife left me. All these sort of things. When they hear that, some of it will ring a bell, strike a chord and might give them the inspiration to talk about it.
0:24:13 - (Eddie): And that, I believe, would instill hope in people, that it's not dire. Regardless of how low they feel they are, there's always a way out. We use spirituality a lot in that. Always seeing God as a way out and always going towards God. A lot of these testimonies all used their spirituality to get them out of where they were. And there's nothing wrong with that. I actually applaud that. If we look at the twelve step program of alcoholics anomalous, they talk about a being greater than yourself.
0:24:46 - (Eddie): To me, I use that a lot because it's so important to think that it just doesn't end with you. There's someone greater than yourself instilling that with people putting that seed in with men, I believe, instills hope and hope that there can be a future. So a lot of these things, I think, are no longer. I don't believe in taboo subjects. I avoid the thought that there's a taboo subject. If it's a subject, we talk about it. I don't care what it is.
0:25:18 - (Eddie): We don't avoid. We don't work around subjects. We actually approach it. And if you want to be men, let's be men with conviction and men who want to make a better version of themselves and be better husbands, be better fathers, be better brother, whatever. But let's not dance around the topic. Let's talk about the hard topics and realize that these topics aren't hard at all. It's just everyone was scared of the unknown and didn't know how to approach it.
0:25:46 - (Debbie): Yeah, it's interesting reading a lot in the literature around taboos. Are created because it gives them powEr. Because there's such a fear around talking about them, then they have a level of control, whether it's around drugs, whether it's around sex, whether it's around pornography. Attaching taboo to those topics gives them the power. But you can see as you open it up, it releases that power, doesn't it?
0:26:10 - (Eddie): That's right.
0:26:11 - (Debbie): And it opens up this conversation and it's normalizing it because it's a shared experience. Most people have grappled with all those issues in various forms.
0:26:21 - (Eddie): The greatest, believe it or not, the greatest addiction is pharmaceutical medication, which is really sad because your oxycodine and your endones and things like that, they're the ones that you feel it's okay to be addicted to. Because it's legal.
0:26:35 - (Debbie): Yeah. And it's socially acceptable in a lot of ways, isn't it? Because it's prescribed.
0:26:40 - (Eddie): Smoking is another one, alcohol, although we know it's really bad and how that can destroy families, it's still legal. So not every addiction has to be illegal. And I think it's important.
0:26:52 - (Debbie): Well, gambling. Gambling is legal, isn't it?
0:26:55 - (Eddie): That's pretty sad.
0:26:56 - (Debbie): There's just such a social movement around gambling. And it is, unfortunately a massive issue in our community because this underlying perception that it is acceptable and it is okay, but it's quite destructive.
0:27:12 - (Eddie): Extremely. And it's become socially acceptable to the point where you actually make fun from it. Like people gamble against each other and some people talk about their winnings and some people, not many people talk about their losing.
0:27:27 - (Debbie): Gambling isn't it. You only remember your win, but it's.
0:27:30 - (Eddie): Become a fun thing. And it's almost like playing a game. They don't realize the impact because I hear the worst part of it. And that is people who've lost their homes, people who've lost their families, all because they don't know how to stop. Sad part about it is what people don't realize is gambling is never really about money in the end. And that's the worst part.
0:27:53 - (Debbie): Yeah, absolutely. It's been able to think about, as you talk about the different addictions, what I'm hearing is this theme of loss. The addiction itself is so consuming. And people not just lose themselves, but lose the important people in their life, their families, their friends, the things that they are attached to.
0:28:16 - (Eddie): Talking about addiction can go for a long time because there's so many elements involved. And when it comes to families, the families who are trying to do the right thing, the ones who have sons who are addicted to something. And they're trying to help the sons, which, if anything, may just exacerbate the addiction because they're trying to help them by paying off their debts. But it doesn't help them with the addictions.
0:28:43 - (Eddie): When we talk with men, we help them understand the psychology of addiction. What happens in the brain and why we get addicted to these things and the dopamine effect and things like that. And why they get addicted to it. And how it's very difficult to. Not to stop being addicted. And you have to make a conscious effort to say, I don't want to be addicted anymore before you can get help.
0:29:07 - (Debbie): Yeah. So just being able to have these testimonies and these lived experiences, do you think that helps the members in the group to get a better understanding of their own experience?
0:29:22 - (Eddie): I think so. I think men are very reflective because they don't talk much. So they must be doing something. And I think when they're sitting back and thinking, they must be reflecting and thinking about, hang on, my nephew's addicted to something and he might again sow that seed. How can I help? Because really, when it comes to addiction, a lot of our people are completely lost and have no idea what to do and to go and seek help.
0:29:51 - (Eddie): Now we come into the realm of shame. Imagine if someone found out that my son was an addict. How much shame would that bring on our family? So again, we come into avoidance for the wrong reason. So there's a lot of, like I said, a lot of layers with addiction.
0:30:08 - (Debbie): So you really. I think what I'm hearing from both of you is you're engaging people to come together and to get rid of the shame factor. BeCause these people are being vulnerable and sharing the most shameful things that society has perhaps socialized them to or forbidden them from talking about it. And they're being open and sharing it in a space. And the group is witnessing that and realizing it's a good thing. It actually has a good outcome.
0:30:40 - (Debbie): And maybe being able to do away with some of that shame and avoidance. When they see someone modeling that, do you find that they start opening up when they see someone in the group do that?
0:30:52 - (Eddie): As soon as the testimonies are over and people sit together and start talking, you see a lot more dialogue within the group. Because you're breaking down walls here and you're normalizing things to the fact that it's okay to feel this way. It's okay. We're not going to judge you. Someone has just gone off and laid out all their laundry in front of you. And they've done it with good conviction. They haven't held back, so they're no different to you.
0:31:21 - (Eddie): They've gone through the whole journey. You're on your journey. So there are people who want to listen. And let me tell you, camaraderie between men. Sometimes it's almost amazing when you see it, because the closeness and bond and what they call the Brotherhood starts to develop. And I think it's a very strong relationship.
0:31:42 - (Debbie): Yeah. Look, as I'm watching you both talk about it, I can see how powerful the experiences are in these groups, being able to see them come together, the power of sharing difficult situations, difficult experiences, and how it really brings them together. So I just want to thank you both for sharing these examples and really appreciate how powerful it is. But also encourage any listeners who are out there suffering in silence, being able to reach out and join one of these groups.
0:32:12 - (Debbie): If there are listeners in that space. I just want to ask both of you if you had any advice for them. If they are reluctant to join a group, what's something that you think would be helpful for them to know?
0:32:25 - (Eddie): I think the most important thing is the men who were attending these groups were just like them. They were all reluctant to join. They were all weary about what might happen, what might come up. But these men are regulars, so it shows that there's nothing to be afraid of. And when you walk down there, if anything, you'll be welcomed, not judged.
0:32:47 - (Debbie): Yeah. So it's a safe place where everyone is welcome and people just like you have come into that space that you can relate to. Monsignor, do you have any messages for any men listening who are contemplating joining a group? Yeah.
0:33:02 - (Monsignor Shora): And that it's not about where you have to dive straight into. It's growing at your comfort. Or comfort is a very relaxed atmosphere to start with, at your pace, but it's a great help that you can build up a sense of brotherhood. Enjoy that sense of brotherhood. And as you feel safe to share and want to understand more and get guidance. Yeah, it's a great way. And then you find if there's something you need to talk to more with one of the priests, one to one, or a counselor, that you've got that opportunity.
0:33:37 - (Monsignor Shora): We can link people up with that. And then you might see the person that gave the testimony. You can talk to them a little bit or to others that you might know. And it's good if you want, if you bring a friend along. Yeah. Everyone's welcome. No, this is not just for Maronites or Lebanese. Yeah, you can bring a friend along, so that helps you to be more comfortable too. Very welcome.
0:34:02 - (Debbie): Yeah. So look, there's no pressure what I'm hearing. It's an open space. Participate when you're ready and if you want to, there's no demand for that. It's by invitation. But also take your time to get familiar and to get comfortable in that space, and that might mean bringing someone with you. I really appreciate you both sharing this fantastic initiative and understanding. It's continued to grow in both parishes and I hope that through this conversation, anyone listening feels comfortable enough and safe enough to join and to test it out.
0:34:37 - (Monsignor Shora): So ours is the first Friday of.
0:34:39 - (Debbie): The month, first Fridays of our new.
0:34:43 - (Monsignor Shora): At the Hill Sanctuary house, six six nine old Northern Road or one friendly road Dural.
0:34:49 - (Eddie): And ours is the last Wednesday of every month and it's at Seven Acton street in the hall of St. Joseph's Maronite Church.
0:34:56 - (Debbie): Fantastic. And we'll put those details in the show notes I hope this episode has helped you find sanctuary in this exciting journey of life. All of the resources we've mentioned in this episode are found in the podcast notes. If you need some assistance with any of the topics discussed in today's episode, then please visit our website, HSHL all Au you and your mental health matters to us and we hope you get one step closer in Finding sanctuary.
0:35:34 - (Debbie): Bye for now.