00:00:00:00 - 00:00:33:06
Debbie Draybi
This episode contains confronting topics and issues. If you need help, please contact beyondblue. For more information and resources, please visit our website. hshl.org.au. Welcome to Finding Sanctuary. Our shared conversations into how we think and feel and how we find peace and comfort in daily life. We get together with experts to chat about all things mental health, getting insights and understanding on the struggles of life. My name is Debbie Draybi, I'm a psychologist and a proud Maronite woman and a mother of three children. And I'm passionate about bringing people together to share their stories, to support each other through life and all this beauty and all this pain. I look forward to hearing from you in this podcast series as we engage in conversations around our shared experiences as a community. We love to hear what you think of the podcast, so please subscribe, share like and comment wherever you get your podcasts.
Thank you for joining us in this episode of this four part series where Paul and Father Danny continue to share their experience with grief and loss. If you haven't had a chance, go back and listen to part one and two before you listen to this one as it will give you a really good context of this conversation. In the last episode, we introduce Paul, a parishioner from St Joseph's Parish, who experienced the tragic loss of his beautiful wife, Margo. Paul shared the depth of his pain, particularly during those early days of having to navigate this incredible loss in his family. He generously and openly share the beautiful examples of how he finds ways to stay connected with Margo through her incredible legacy in how she reached out to others and built strong connections in her faith community, but also in the wider community, including with other patients she met throughout her treatment. Together, Paul and Father Danny demonstrate the power of coming together and human connection how they keep Margo alive in their family and parish community, and how this helps in their healing journey. In this conversation, we witnessed two incredible men coming together and modelling the strength and power of being open and vulnerable. Together, they give this strong message and permission to be human, to experience the pain and suffering in an open way with each other. I'm really honored and privileged to continue to share this conversation with you in this episode where Paul and Father Danny continue to share their experiences in coming together. They both demonstrate the strength of showing our emotions and being open in our grief and reaching out and asking for help. They emphasize the power of giving each other permission to be authentic in our pain, seeking help and connecting with others. Paul talks about his healing journey and how he continues to navigate this, and how he finds bursts of light in the darkest moments. Sharing the burden and weight and finding ways to unpack some of the heaviness of loss and how sharing with others can really lighten the load and enable hope and meaning for the future. So let's jump in and share this story together. Like, I think you are modeling true strength to be open with all the emotions that we have because you know, we're human regardless of our gender. But it is it is something unfortunately, it's not just Lebanese. It's in general society. Society has conditioned them to the mantra 'Big boys Don't cry'. These are the messages that you get constantly. So thank you for saying that and for modeling that in such a powerful way. And and it is a sign of strength.
Father Danny
I mean, that expresses that emotion is a strong person. Is a strong man. Yeah, I think.
Debbie Draybi
Yeah, absolutely. And that's what I'm witnessing here. You know, I've got a son and I hope that, you know, he gets that message because it's tricky. We unconsciously, even as a trained professional, unconsciously, sometimes give them different messages to the girls without even realizing because it's such an entrenched way of being. But being able to to model that and to to walk a different path and sometimes even using humour to normalise it. Yes, you are a sook. But that's not just you! We're all sooks!
00:04:25:16 - 00:04:43:11
Paul Tannous
Look I got. Yes. And I love that nickname. It's very much me and you know my kids make fun of me all the time, Especially Bella, my daughter, as soon as I tear up she's just rolls her eyes saying "Alright, here we go, sooky Paul is back!". But I want my kids to see the emotion. I want them to see the grief. You know, I don't want to hide it from them because, you know, their mom was, you know, massive in my life. In their life. Obviously. And, yeah, it's a it's a big loss for us. And, you know, I'm human, and I suffer too. They need to see that. I'm not ashamed of crying in church. Yeah. That's that's just it. There are things that, you know, Father Danny says in his homily or, you know, a song comes up that just triggers me because it reminds me of, you know, God or something that she said in church or some song that she liked. We go to church to find out. And sometimes, you know, as silly as that sounds, she's she's there.
Father Danny
It's not silly at all - it's the truth.
Paul Tannous
It is. Absolutely. I believe it. It's the truth. You know, I believe it. And we're very we're very deep, deep seated in our faith. And that's the marker. She she drove that for us. Yeah.
Debbie Draybi
And I think it's a credit to you both that you have this level of openness and vulnerability where you can invite her in and and know that she's going to be there and she's going to be present. And it takes it takes an openness and courage to allow that. And, you know, I'm witnessing it here. And, you know, as as I mentioned earlier, just even hearing you talk about how you navigate help and ask for help, it's not something that is easy to do - not in our culture.
Paul Tannous
No, no, it's not. And, you know, like I say, it's you know, whether it's through trained professionals, or whether it's just just the catching up with Father Danny for a coffee, you know, in his office, all of that helps, you know, just to know that there are people there that that want to help you and help you. You know, sometimes it's just a conversation, like just somebody to talk to that, you know, that's not going to bring a loved one back yeah. But it's just being able to talk and have a cry and. Yeah. And then you walk out of there and there's a little bit of healing that took place at that point. And that's what it is. It's just about healing. That's a perpetual journey for me now. So yeah.
Debbie Draybi
Yeah, it's ongoing, isn't it? Absolutely not. So there's no magic wand or formula as you mentioned in our last podcast, Father Danny, it's it's something that's part of your journey.
Paul Tannous
Absolutely. Yeah. Look, I mean, there are bursts of light these days. That appear, you know, through the darkness and. Yeah. And that's part of the journey, you know. Yes. And they her bursts of light that she send and I believe in that yeah. It's ongoing. There's a day you wake up and you go, that's it. I don't have to cry today because, you know, the world's a good place. There's still days today where every day there'll be a thought that pops into your head either get, you know, the chills over your body or, you know, or this tears that flow, but you just got to continue with life. You can't give up- She was big on never giving up.
Debbie Draybi
Yeah. And I think that, you know, I know I've had conversations with you in the past where her words, her final words to you are so powerful and they give you that strength to keep going and to be the fighter that you are and. Yeah. To continue this struggle.
Paul Tannous
Yeah. Look, it's a struggle. But, you know, by by sharing my journey through your medium on this podcast, to be able to help somebody who's going through, you know, a similar journey that's I feel like.. it's almost Margo's pushed me into this. You know, to be able to help people. Well, she helped with her fundraising. Used to be able to help other men. If you know that that have lost whether it's wife or, you know, a parent or child, heaven forbid, whatever the case may be, it just just that have an overarching grief that I could possibly help by talking through it. Absolutely. I'd love the opportunity.
Debbie Draybi
Yeah. I think you already have Paul, in so many different ways, in the way that you reach and connect with people and and coming on here today, you know, it's just such a powerful message to normalize the experience that you have, as tragic as it is. Yeah. But just make it real and share it in such a profound way.
Paul Tannous
If I can if I can touch somebody and help them on their journey and let them know it does get lighter, it never gets easier. I just think it gets lighter. The path gets lighter. You know, people would say to me, oh, you know, time heals. And, you know, I to use a few expletives, but, oh, how could you do this? But it doesn't. Time will never heal, you know, it just it just makes it lighter, that's all. That's all it does.
Debbie Draybi
Yeah. So part of that is being able to feel like you're carrying less. Yeah, that huge backpack that you've had slowly unpacking.
00:09:57:23 - 00:10:15:06
Paul Tannous
Absolutely. Yeah, nah. The backpack I'll carry for the rest of my life. It's just it's I'm not so much the hunchback of Notre Dame these days as much as I was at the beginning. Yeah. And that's a that's a great analogy, you know, but it's definitely a lighter backpack. But yeah.
Debbie Draybi
But sometimes you might refill it for a little bit...
Paul Tannous
Of course, I've had loss, you know, we've had loss of uncles and family members in the past, you know, post my guys passing and not using the word, but, you know, you almost become immune to those to those losses. You know, I lost my uncle. I think he did the mass for him about a year and a bit ago. And yeah, he lived a wonderful life and he almost become immune to it. But but you're there for your cousins because you know what they're going through with the loss and you're constantly, constantly in contact with them. I mean, we're family. We always in contact. We especially over those those first few weeks.
Debbie Draybi
Yeah. It's almost like you connect with people in a different way now because you've experienced and you have a sense of what they might be needing. Yeah. How you can best support them.
Paul Tannous
100%. Absolutely.
Debbie Draybi
I'm wondering for our listeners if there's any key messages you'd like to leave them with from this conversation that you think would be really useful for them to hear if they are struggling in and really struggling to reach out and connect with someone and ask for help?
Father Danny
I would say, first of all, don't be afraid to show your emotion and express your emotion Don't be afraid to speak to someone. Don't hold it in and don't be afraid to get some professional help if you need professional help. It doesn't have to be professional help. It could be, you know, a priest or someone at the church. But if you need professional help, then don't be afraid, because I think that's sometimes a big stigma in our community that it's cyber or I assume and you know, people feel ashamed, shameful to to be seen, you know, walking into a counseling or a psychologist, you know, practice. But it's not shameful at all. It's it's courageous. It's actually quite courageous and it's much needed. So don't be afraid.
Debbie Draybi
Thank you, Father. Thanks for that strong message around reaching out. And if there is fear to think about, it's normal to feel feel it and to also take that next step and do something about it. Be courageous.
Debbie Draybi
And Paul, what about yourself? I know you had this incredible sharing already, and I wondered if you had some key messages that you'd like to leave for the listeners.
Paul Tannous
Just to echo or Father Danny said. The points that he raised around seeking help, asking for help, showing your emotion, vulnerability, being authentic are really important. One thing that helped and has helped and continues to help is I meditate every day and, you know, for ten or 15 minutes in the morning, it just comes my mind. And this sort of sets me up for the day. So, yeah. Always looking for some anchor points and structure in your day. To me, that has helped me immensely. Not to steal from you know, RUOK day, but it's okay not to be okay. Yes. You know, we all struggle where life isn't a bed of roses every day of the week. You know, and life can be harsh and it will knock you down. You just got to keep getting back up. And sometimes you need somebody there to help you get back up. And, yeah, if it means that you need to seek professional help or speak to a friend or come to a church gathering where there's men around and there's vulnerability in that room and you feel safe. And I think that's probably where men probably struggle. I know I would have in my younger days, you know, I don't want to feel like I'm the weak man. In that room, you know, but if it's a room full of guys and you feel safe in that room to share, I think if we can create more of that within our community, I think you'll find that that will unlock a lot of the bravado of us men, you know, who are alpha males to actually share their unknowability, because I think under the surface, every man struggles. Yeah. What they what they project in public, in their church and it's not what it seems. I guarantee you, under the surface, there's this there's you know, whether that's sadness or fear or, you know, uncertainty or insecurity. Insecurity. A lot of insecurity. Yeah. And I can identify those those traits these days, having gone through it, you know, what they look like. But it's just unlocking them and getting men to to talk more. That's that's the key.
00:14:41:19 - 00:15:09:03
Debbie Draybi
You know what really resonates? Having grown up in the community, but also worked as a clinician, with our community, the challenges of being able to unlock that where we do work really hard at presenting a certain image, whether it's men, even women, you know, in different ways. And the challenge is how do we unlock that and make it safe to be real and to show up exactly as who we are and to get rid of something that just is with no judgment.
And just one last question. You did mention earlier about sometimes you got to a point where people stop supporting or approaching you. And I'm wondering about that, say, for someone who might be hesitating to contact someone who they know has lost a loved one because they're not sure how to do it appropriately. What advice would you give to them around being courageous to reach out and to support others.
Paul Tannous
If you're thinking about that person - call them. Yeah. If they don't answer - Leave a voicemail. Or if you don't want to leave a voicemail send a text. Send a text. That's all. And it's as simple as was thinking of you. Just thought I'd say hi. I hope you will give me a call when you get a moment. You probably won't hear from that person, and that's okay. It's not because that they don't want to talk to you but maybe they are just dealing with it in their own way. But if you haven't heard from them in a few weeks time, try again.
Debbie Draybi
And if you see them randomly, because I know we talked about sometimes people avoiding you in the street.
Paul Tannous
Yeah, of course. And I look, I as I said to you on the phone the other week when we spoke, I'm not angry at those people. You know, I get it now that they just don't know what to say to you. They don't know how to deal with your grief and they don't know how to. And you know that I don't have the words and I understand that. But they see you and then they cross the road and the other guy the other way, and that's okay. I mean, you know, we all deal with loss and grief and and uncomfortableness differently and. Yeah, no, look, it has happened to me a couple times, and then that's okay. But I think for somebody in my experience is to reach out to them. If you're thinking of them, then absolutely pick up the phone and reach out to them, because you never know what that little gesture, what impact that has on that individual. Yeah. And it can be profound in some cases. I've still got the text messages from Father Danny over the time during lockdown where he just reach out for a text. I hope you're okay. Yeah, that meant the world to me. And what he said in the previous podcast, and I was blessed to listen to him. When you when you say priest, it's like you saying, God, I think I'm paraphrasing, but that's what it feels like. You know, when I say Father Danny or any of the clergy. Yeah. So, yeah. So they meant the world to me when he'd reach out because Parish Priest of St Joseph is no easy job, that's for sure. So for him to take a few minutes of his busy day to send me a text message, it just meant the world to me that there are people in this world that love, love me and care for me and they're looking out for me. And that's the message I want to get across to. People sometimes think they by themselves and they're suffering. Yeah.
Debbie Draybi
Well, you've got him quoting you, Father Danny. I say you're doing well!
Father Danny
I might add just one thing. Pray for them as well. Yeah. Always remember them in your prayers because that's something that's something very easy that we can do that will support them and that will comfort them and that will allow God to sort of be with them. And that helps you to think about them. Also, I think when you're carrying him in your prayers and you're carrying the grief and the experience in your prayers as well. So it's I think it's very important that we pray for each other. And in that way, we are we are also helping each other and journeying with each other as well.
Debbie Draybi
Yeah. Thank you. And even letting them know that you're praying for them sometimes that's so profound. To know that someone's not just thinking about you, but they're thinking about you in their prayers. Well, thank you both. I really appreciate your honesty and your openness and actually I think it's been a really powerful conversation. And I really appreciate the Margo's presence here as well with us.
Paul Tannous
Always a bit of a sticky beak that girl, she'll be listening.
Debbie Draybi
Thank you for listening to this incredible series on navigating grief and loss and the power of vulnerability and openness. Please look out for our next and final episode in this series where Paul joins me and Natalie Majali and continues to share and give some practical strategies and his key learning and his desire to help others who have experienced loss I hope this episode has helped you find sanctuary in this exciting journey of life. All of the resources we've mentioned in this episode are found in the podcast notes. If you need some assistance with any of the topics discussed in today's episode, then please visit our website. H. S, h. L to all of you. You and your mental health matters to us, and we hope you get one step closer in finding sanctuary.