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Debbie
Warning this episode contains confronting topics and issues. If you need help, please contact beyond blue. For more information and resources, please visit our website h is HL dot org dot aew and welcome to Finding Sanctuary. Our shared conversations into how we think and feel and how we find peace and comfort in daily life. We get together with experts to chat about all things mental health, getting insights and understanding on the struggles of life.
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Debbie
My name is Debbie Draybi, and I'm a psychologist and a proud Maronite woman and a mother of three children. And I'm passionate about bringing people together to share their stories, to support each other through life and all this beauty and all this pain. I look forward to hearing from you in this podcast series as we engage in conversations around our shared experiences as a community.
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Debbie
We love to hear what you think of the podcast, so please subscribe, share like and comment wherever you get your podcasts.
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Debbie
But I'm really excited today to be joined by a very special friend and guests. Father Danny Nouh. I'd like to introduce him as a friend first because I've known him for a very long time. We've worked together as peers, but also he's been an incredible support in my life with my family. And today we're talking about grief and loss and how we negotiate that.
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Debbie
And as we start this conversation, I'm really going to draw on Father Danny's experience working with families in the midst of their grief periods in the lead up to losing someone. And that's something that's definitely very close to my heart. Father Danny visited us when I lost my father a couple of years ago, and one memory in the hospital was getting a visit from Father Danny unexpectedly.
00:01:55:01 - 00:02:16:19
Debbie
And just remember feeling in the midst of that grief how powerful that was to see him coming and to join our family and to share with us. And to be honest. One of the things that I remember about that time was just feeling this immense joy at a very, very sad time where it was quite numbing. And there's not a lot that I remember, but I do remember that moment.
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Debbie
And Father Danny came and joined us, and we had a really nice conversation about everyday things. And it was just beautiful to feel grounded and and to reconnect with life because you feel so disconnected at that time. So welcome, Father Danny. I'm really excited that you're here and hope that we can share some stories and experiences. I've just said a bit about mine and that connection that we have I just want to thank you for coming in and really appreciate you being part of this conversation.
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Father Danny
Thank you for having me and thank you for inviting me. I feel very honored and privileged to be joining you. And I think from what I've seen, you and the team are doing a wonderful job. It's something I think that needs to be promoted not just in our air pocket. But in our community as a whole. And I think it's something that we'll be promoting at St Joseph's from now on so that the wider community can listen into these podcasts and benefit from the stories, from the experiences.
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Father Danny
Everything that you share with them so that we can be more informed and share and communicate with each other. Our experiences to learn more and experience things that we should be, you know, traveling through.
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Debbie
Thanks, Father. It's really wonderful that you've got such an enthusiasm and interest in it and wanting to share it, because that's one thing that we want to try and do is we've started in one parish, but you know, you've done work at Our Lady of Lebanon and, and now recently we've had to let you go to St Joseph's and it's wonderful that you're able to, you know, have a new experience and contribute to a new community.
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Debbie
There as well. I've had so many great things that you're doing, the wonderful work that you're doing there. Today we're talking about grief and loss and from your perspective and the experiences that you have in the different parishes, but also within your own family. I know that you're very lucky to have you as a married priest with a family and children and and I think that brings a new wealth of experience and a connection as a father and as a husband.
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Debbie
And I think that's beautiful and that's quite unique that we have that as a Mennonite community. And often I tell people about that, and I quite curious about how as Catholics, we have married priests. What's been some of your key learnings about what people are needing and what's really important for them when you do reach out and connect with them?
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Father Danny
Well, I think I think the first thing that you need to do is a company the person that is grieving or the person that has just lost someone. Each individual, we grieve in a different way. So you'll have some people that will grieve in a very horrific way where they've been so attached to someone that they cannot bear the thought of not having that person any longer physically in their life.
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Father Danny
Some who are more, if I can say, developed in their faith, will will be glad that someone has passed from this life that was suffering, that was in a lot of pain, knowing that they are starting a new journey with God in heaven. Hopefully the levels are different. The the you know, children grieve in a different way. Women, if I can say, grieve in a different way to men.
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Father Danny
Men, men don't like to express their emotions as much as women do. It depends. So everyone is different in the way that they grieve and the process of grieving. However, I think you have to meet each person where they're at. I don't think there's an exact formula or an exact science, but it's our presence. I think that is so important and our support and as I said, our accompaniment of of the individual, of the family being there for them, just our presence there, I think gives them that support, gives them that comfort that they need helping them to to process what has just taken place mentally and emotionally, but also helping them in the process,
00:06:04:18 - 00:06:30:20
Father Danny
making sure that the funeral arrangements are done well. So there's no, you know, hassles or there's no complications or there's no it's a delicate time for people and everyone, I think, wants the funeral of a loved one to go smoothly and beautifully and, you know, to send their loved ones off in the most beautiful way. So we have to try to provide that environment for them so that it's easy for them.
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Father Danny
It's just something that, you know, the funeral is something that they don't have to think about. Something that they can just say to me, we want this, we want this, we want this. And then, you know, we cater for that and we organize that for them. And yeah, so it's just being there and supporting and helping and bringing Christ.
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Father Danny
I think that's the that's one of the most important things that our mission is to do, is to bring Christ to that family and to help them to see Christ at that moment in time or in that moment in their life. Because someone that has just lost someone, especially in a tragedy or in circumstances that are, you know, beyond control, they may have a little bit of a resentment towards God or, you know, asking questions why?
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Father Danny
I guess our aim is not to our purpose, not to us or not to answer those questions, but to support them and guide them so that they can find the answers themselves through their grieving process.
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Debbie
As you're talking, Father, I'm just I'm getting this visual of I mean, you mentioned one of the first things you said was the importance of being present and accompanying them and really walking alongside with them in their journey and meeting them where they are and and being able to identify what their needs are. Because, as you said, they're quite unique Everyone will be everyone's needs will be different.
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Debbie
There's no one approach that's going to work. And there's no formula at all.
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Father Danny
Yeah, not at all. But I think that presence is so important. And in that presence, you will discover what that family needs what that individual needs, and then you will be able to cater for those needs in the best possible way. As I said, trying to make sure that they can say Christ through you all the time.
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Debbie
We've talked the last few series around the experience of COVID and how immense that was and the impact. I mean, it was a global crisis that impacted the world, you know, in different ways. But within our community, we had some challenges that weren't unique they were sort of happening everywhere. But I'm wondering from your experience in COVID, what that was like being able to do this accompaniment and to show up and be present what some of the new challenges that may have emerged for you in your work?
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Father Danny
Look, I always looked at covered in a positive way because there was there was a lot of negative and there were a lot of challenges. But I tried to take the positives always out of COVID so that we can actually learn from it and move forward. And I think one of the positives that I know my family experienced, for example, was being together, spending more time with each other.
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Father Danny
The value of that. For years, I haven't been able to go on walks, for example, with my wife and struggles, you know, and we would walk for hours, hours and hours. So physically it was good. But emotionally, mentally, psychologically, it was so good to be able to to do that. I think it brought families together and it helped them to understand how important it is to be close to each other.
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Father Danny
I know the first round in 20, 20, I think we were one of the first families to get it with with my son and it was very controversial at that stage, you know, you know, the whole saga with the church. And he was, you know, he was singing in the church at that time and the abuse that we that we got and that he got because people just didn't understand and I didn't know what was going on and they had to close the church down, et cetera.
00:10:03:03 - 00:10:27:16
Father Danny
So there was there was that very challenging experience for for me and for the family. However, you know, from that, we grew a network of people. So every time someone would either had to isolate or call COVID, we grew a network of people on the Internet, on the on social media. So through Zoom. So we were we would celebrate mass.
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Father Danny
I would celebrate mass at home. And then we would call all the families, for example, that were affected in that little group to celebrate mass with us on Z. And of course, they weren't physically celebrating Mass. However, they were there present praying with us. And it was me and my family, for example. And my son was in the in like he had to isolate in his room and we couldn't go into his room.
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Father Danny
And that was so difficult that that I think that taught us, you know, the difficulty of being isolated from someone that you love. When my second son got it as well and then he had to isolate another, that was even more difficult because you had two of your children, for example, that you love so much, and that at this time they need you so much, but you couldn't go into the room because the whole stigma and the whole the the laws and everything that, you know, all the challenges that that came about because of this pandemic but I think it strengthened us.
00:11:24:03 - 00:11:56:23
Father Danny
We came out a lot stronger. We came out knowing more. We came out being able to make better decisions. We came out knowing maybe to listen and to understand to people a lot more because, you know, it divided the community. And I know I know from, you know, my experience at St Joseph's that in 20, 20 we had we had a panel, for example, with the bishop and experts that came that we that we we streamed and that that divided the community because you had a lot of people who were for a lot of people who were against.
00:11:57:06 - 00:12:23:04
Father Danny
But I think it was also providing the right information for people to make an informed decision. So it didn't matter for me whether you were for or against that as long as you were content with the decision that you had made then that was the important thing that that I think I think that strengthened me in that because for example, if I chose to take the vaccinations I chose to do that because I was informed.
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Father Danny
I knew what I was doing. I don't regret doing it. There were people that chose not to take the vaccinations, and I respect that and up until this day, I respect that it's you know, that's as long as you were informed and you were you knew exactly what you were doing and you what your choice or decision was based on the information that you have received.
00:12:42:09 - 00:13:08:04
Father Danny
Then we have to listen to each other. We have to respect each other's views and opinions, and we have to move forward. And I think that experience strengthened me and strengthened my family. I'm looking back and it's strengthened a lot of people. It did bring a lot of challenges afterwards. Yes. But I think we're capable of addressing those challenges and facing those challenges in the face and moving forward, picking ourselves up.
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Father Danny
And we are a resilient people. So we pick ourselves up and we keep going. We don't let anything stop us, especially when we're grounded in our faith. And I think that's that's the key, that when we are grounded in our faith, no matter what comes our way and our faith guides us and leads us in the right direction.
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Debbie
Hearing your experience, Father, I remember at the time it was it was highly controversial. And you having to navigate that as a leader in the community but also as a father, you know, wanting to protect your family. And and I think, you know, what you talk about is this incredible strength that you gained in working with your family.
00:13:49:05 - 00:14:04:20
Debbie
As hard as it was to isolate, you know, it's this new level of grief because you there's a loss of connection and a loss of sort of ability to to be in that full role as a father and as a carer and then having to deal with the community and manage all that.
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Father Danny
If I can give you an example of something that there was a couple that was supposed to be married on the weekend that my son covered. He was, as everyone knows, that my son sings and plays the piano at church, and he was the singer at that wedding. So he was rehearsing on the Thursday night at the bride's home with the whole bridal party, with all the singers that was of the choir that had formed this beautiful choir that was supposed to be singing in the church, et cetera, et cetera.
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Father Danny
So imagine what he was like to call the bride on Saturday morning and tell her that my son had caught COVID and that because she was a direct contact that she couldn't get married tomorrow.
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Debbie
Well.
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Father Danny
I think about it now, and that was one of the most difficult things that I had to do. And it was like she was in shock. We were in shock because I couldn't even believe that we had to do that. She covered. So she had covered. So she so she had to isolate her whole family, had to isolate the whole bridal party, hatzis, et cetera, et cetera.
00:15:17:11 - 00:15:34:12
Father Danny
But imagine like imagine that was one of the things that there was a lot of grief there like not just for the bride and the groom, but for the whole everyone that was involved. But I think God gives us the strength. Not I think I know God gives us the strength that we have to make the right choice.
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Father Danny
We have to make the right decision and then move forward. You know, she was so determined to get married or both of them were so determined that as soon as they got out of isolation, they were preparing the you know, they had to delay everything by two weeks. They had to change the church, they had to change the priest.
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Father Danny
Because I was when we went into isolation, you know, it was two weeks. And then when the next person catches that you have, it's another two weeks. So we were in isolation for about three or four weeks. So I couldn't marry them. I couldn't get out of isolation. But then, you know, we had to find another priest for her.
00:16:04:17 - 00:16:26:22
Father Danny
And but it all worked out, you know, at the end it all worked out. But just our reliance, I think, on God that helps us and that gives us the strength to to continue. And now I think we are stronger. We are stronger because of it. And I think we are able to make better decisions and choices in our lives because, you know, we've we have experienced this.
00:16:27:06 - 00:16:36:09
Father Danny
It has made us better people with all its negativity and with all the negative challenges that we faced. But I think it has made us very strong. Yeah.
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Debbie
I think just hearing the depth of your emotion and just witnessing it here today, Father, it's still there like that. How terrible that was what you had to do to really ruin someone's dream. You know, it was happening everywhere and you sort of in the thick of it, not just as a family member, but as a leader and as someone that, you know, you were going to make this happen.
00:17:00:09 - 00:17:01:24
Debbie
You're the one that was going to lead the wedding.
00:17:01:24 - 00:17:22:12
Father Danny
And we I mean, we had to put out a statement because, you know, my son was one of the first people to catch the church. Had to be closed. Yeah. You know, the biggest parish in Australia, the biggest parish in the southern hemisphere had to be closed because my son could go so imagine like imagine the feelings, imagine the emotions.
00:17:22:12 - 00:17:47:18
Father Danny
Imagine imagine what my son was going through in that regard. But again, I feel that our faith helped us to get through it. It brought us together so much more as a family to pray together, but also as a community. And we were able to think outside of the square. We were able to come up with, you know, different ideas of how we were to bring God to the community, to people who were isolated in their rooms or isolated in the homes.
00:17:48:03 - 00:17:58:12
Father Danny
They were still able to celebrate mass through the live streaming. They were still able to celebrate, to pray the rosary, et cetera. In all the negativity, there was so much positivity also, I think.
00:17:59:13 - 00:18:29:16
Debbie
And Father, thank you. Thank you. I know that this is this was a very difficult experience for you. And there was a lot of controversy and pressure on you. And your family. And I think it's it's beautiful that you're sharing and being so open about it. And I think what really you're modeling is the importance of sharing even the difficult times and the growth that you've gained from that, but also the credibility that you are a family man leading, you know, having a very big role in a big community.
00:18:29:16 - 00:18:38:18
Debbie
But you still have that responsibility for your children. And together, you know, you pull through and you work together to reconnect.
00:18:39:02 - 00:19:06:13
Father Danny
We were working with the medical authorities as well. So because it was something that we had never experienced before. So if you like my home became like a center of operation because we're working with the medical authorities. I was, you know, communicating with the bishop, I was communicating with the parish. We were trying to organize the parish in a way that, you know, closing the parish and what's next, you know, coming bringing in the cleaners and but also dealing with what was going on at home.
00:19:06:13 - 00:19:11:01
Father Danny
So it was quite big. But thanks, Peter, God, for for his graces.
00:19:11:20 - 00:19:32:13
Debbie
And what I'm hearing is the power of, you know, the turmoil and the chaos but then these creativity emerge and just being able to think about, yes, there's this real crisis going on and this grief within your family but then what emerges, positive experience from it, you know, how you navigate that.
00:19:32:23 - 00:20:05:03
Father Danny
In these circumstances. It's always good to think of the positive, even if there's like this, the dimmest, the dimmest, like, you know, hang on to that, catch on to that and just build that up because from something from a little spark, you can do so much. And that's what we tried to do. And especially I think in 20, 21 when the second round came yeah, we had to close down the churches, but we, we, we tried as much as we can to reach out to people and to make sure that they were connected.
00:20:05:11 - 00:20:44:00
Father Danny
Yeah. I know from St Joseph's for example, people were watching the masses in Wollongong. In Melbourne we got calls from America, we got calls from America saying Please continue, thank you, thank you for four for celebrating the masses. Thank you for your homilies, thank you for, you know, the rosary nights and the prayer nights that you are organizing and it was just that connection, I think that, you know, we were able to be creative and think outside of the square, but we were able to go into people's homes at at a time when no one was able to go into their homes through, you know, either the phone or the lens of a television screen
00:20:44:00 - 00:21:08:22
Father Danny
or what have you and I think that was so important that that resided the grief that they were suffering from that was the sort of moment or hour of of joy yeah. In the midst of all this negativity and in the midst of, you know, not knowing what the future was going to hold for for a lot of people in the midst of people close relatives and close friends passing away from this disease.
00:21:08:22 - 00:21:29:14
Father Danny
You know, the funerals, for example, I remember the first funeral in over at Our Lady of Lebanon was a family and a man who I had been visiting regularly at home. He passed away. And it was I remember in March, I think that you could only have ten people present in the church. Ten people maximum. He had eight children.
00:21:30:14 - 00:21:57:12
Father Danny
He had eight children. They could be present. The children could be present, a priest and someone helping the priest. So they opted for the choir member to to sing. So I was myself, the choir member and his eight children so imagine his daughter was carrying the cross. His children were carrying in the coffin. All the grandchildren were outside either in their cars or at home watching the lights and no one could come into the church.
00:21:58:06 - 00:22:19:03
Father Danny
Imagine how difficult that I remember on bringing in the coffin. It was as if it was my father. I was just I was in tears. I was I was bawling my eyes out because how difficult this this separation, this separation of people this is the time that they needed their family the most. And this is and this was the time that their family couldn't be with them.
00:22:19:17 - 00:22:31:16
Father Danny
That was so difficult. Yeah. But again, we got through it and we're here today, and I think we've learned so much from that. And I think we've learned to deal a lot more with grief because of COVID.
00:22:31:20 - 00:22:40:14
Debbie
Yeah. What do you think the key learnings were in terms of dealing with that grief? What are some of your key learnings that you've now taken into your practice?
00:22:42:09 - 00:23:24:14
Father Danny
Presence being present, no matter which form? So trying to trying to work out the best way of being present with the family, with, with the people that are grieving listening, making sure that you listen to them and you you you know exactly what they want, what they need and then providing for that need accompanying. So being there, being there for them in whichever way, no matter how how difficult no matter how, how many barriers there are, but being there and even if it's just, you know, through Zoom or through a conversation on the phone or face time, whatever it is, you know, trying to find the way to be with with with them so that
00:23:24:20 - 00:23:32:04
Father Danny
you can accompany them and, and walk with them, walk with them on this this journey that they are our father.
00:23:32:04 - 00:23:56:19
Debbie
Thank you for sharing your experience. I think, you know, I'm just picturing that funeral in my head, you know, around you walking and accompanying them and sharing in their grief and crying with them. You know, the incredible power of that that learning of how to accompany someone in their grief and to find ways as difficult as it was to have very little family there.
00:23:56:22 - 00:24:12:03
Debbie
But your presence and your tears would have just been incredible. Powerful message that they're not alone and that you're sharing with them and that that pain and that walk that I had to do with very little community, which we generally all do when.
00:24:12:03 - 00:24:29:04
Father Danny
We and we that we're aware of people that need we need to be surrounded by our family and friends. And so imagine not being able to have that with you at the time when you needed it the most. You know, when you're you're bidding farewell to someone that that you love so much. Yeah, it's heart wrenching. Yes, heart wrenching.
00:24:30:03 - 00:24:51:17
Debbie
I've noticed that you saying we got through. And I think that's a really powerful message in our grief. And when we lose someone or lose something that it does pass and we do get through it, we get through it with the pain doesn't go away. It's still there, but we get through it. And and what emerges is a new, new creativity of who we are and how we want to be in the world.
00:24:51:20 - 00:24:54:17
Father Danny
And there's always that light at the end of the tunnel.
00:24:55:02 - 00:24:55:10
Debbie
Yeah.
00:24:55:17 - 00:24:56:22
Father Danny
And that's the light of Jesus.
00:24:56:22 - 00:24:57:01
Debbie
Yeah.
00:24:59:14 - 00:25:21:08
Debbie
Well, thank you, Father. I really appreciate this conversation and all your sharing and your wisdom. And I think that it's just been really powerful and moving for me to to he be so vulnerable and to share. And I think for our listeners to know that we're all human, we all experience, no matter what role we have, we experience the full spectrum of human emotions and that that's normal and that's OK.
00:25:21:12 - 00:25:23:11
Debbie
And it's important that we share that.
00:25:23:24 - 00:25:41:10
Father Danny
Absolutely. And so important. Yeah, it's so important that we speak about it and that we share it with each other because again, that's how we learn. Yeah. We learn from each other and we learn from each other's experiences. And each one of us is on a different journey. Yeah. But we can learn from each other and that's how we grow, I think.
00:25:41:11 - 00:25:43:05
Father Danny
Yeah, it's definitely how we grow. Yeah.
00:25:43:05 - 00:26:09:15
Debbie
And it's just that sharing that enables all that unlocks that as hidden things that sometimes we carry on our own and that can isolate us I hope this episode has helped you find sanctuary in this exciting journey of life. All of the resources we've mentioned in this episode are found in the podcast notes. If you need some assistance with any of the topics discussed in today's episode, then please visit our website - www.hshl.org.au. You and your mental health matters to us and we hope you get one step closer in finding sanctuary by find. Now.